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Sandhurst
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Message 1.Β
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Friday, 4th November 2011
i watched this excellent documentary series
what i havent been able to ascertain is whether before the sandhurst training they had normal infantry training
if not how could they do the tasks involving long marches and ambushes etc ??
st -
Message 2
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Friday, 4th November 2011
Well I expect quite a lot of them belonged to OCT groups at school, but not all of them. I don't suppose it would cover everything, either.
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Message 3
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Saturday, 5th November 2011
but if they arent trained soldiers how can they lead soldiers ??
they certainly dont get trained when they reach their units and i cant find anything that says they are trained before sandhurst ???
st -
Message 4
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Saturday, 5th November 2011
stalti
I think that the British Army like many employers prefers to select people with the "right potential " who have not yet been miseducated and taught differently to the way that they believe that they should be taught.
But as ferval has said many of the "top schools" from the time that the Army was reformed after the Northcote Trevelyan Enquiry quite specifically taught their pupils for entry into the Civil Service, the Professions or the Army.
G M Trevelyan wrote in his fragment of autobiography that when he went to Harrow there was no formal teaching of History as such in the Sixth Form. Most boys were being prepared for examinations to get ahead in those three fields. Harrow made special provision for the son of George Otto Trevelyan- historian, biographer and politician, who was also the great nephew of Lord Macaulay.
In 1914 school cadet corps from places like Harrow, Eton and Uppingham were a source of "fast-tracked" officers when a rapid expansion in the Army was called for.
But the Army has learned to cast its net much wider these days, and to take on "true beginners".
This was certainly the case with the Head Girl of our South London comprehensive who was quite strongly featured in a previous documentary series about the first female intake into Sandhurst.. I must say that it came as something of a shock to those who taught her for 7 years to discover that she had always harboured ambitions in that direction, for she was not really a terribly physical and sporty person, and early challenges like the swimming pool drills and camping rough really did test her.
I am not sure that she had even been in the Girl Guides and Brownees- and Sandhurst staff discussions frequently featured comments about just how well she was doing "all things considered" . The formal dress "Mess Dinners", when would-be laddettes had to show that they could still be ladies, were quite challenging experiences for a "bog standard comprehensive" ex-pupil.
She did not make it and I assume that she fell-back on the offer that she had received from a major chain of stores to join their management scheme on the basis of her performance over the summer holidays as a 'temp'.
The "star" student of that first female intake had gone to Sandhurst a few years older. Her father was a major or general, and perhaps like Joanna Lumley she knew army life as a "daughter of the regiment". Knowing all about the army it had never been her ambition to go into it. But after "finishing school" in Switzerland (?) and perhaps a season's campaign as a "Deb" the idea of being the first female in her family to serve in that way perhaps appealed to her 'by default'..
Some years later- as it happened- another one of our pupils was the first British born black student to go to Sandhurst. I met him (and his Hong Kongese wife- another ex-pupil) after he had been there for some months. He too seems to have been selected on potential- not least, as he ironically commented, in being appointed captain of the athletics basically just because he was black.
But in that British tradition that you do not ask anyone to do anything that you can not do yourself- (rather like that old public school "fagging" tradition) I would expect the Sandhurst training to cover the full range of skill-requirements. After all- though my pupil was the first British born black person- Sandhurst played an important role in training up the officer corps of various parts of the world on something a bit like the old "monitorial system".
The First World War was a watershed moment that broke the "glass ceiling" so that in for example the British Indian Army Indians could aspire to officer status. To this end Dehra Dun- "The Indian Sandhurst"- was set up c 1929, and one of the "funny" aspects of "Old Boys Re-Union Dinners" for several years was (is) that the opposing Generals of Pakistan, Bangladesh, and India would forget about their wars for the evening that they spent together at their old 'alma mater".
Cass -
Message 5
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Saturday, 5th November 2011
Dehra Dun was 1932, Cass.
There were Indian Commissioned Officers (not to be confused with the VCO's or Viceroy's Commissioned Officers) well before that - they seved in WWI for certain, possibly earlier, and were Sandhurst trained. -
Message 6
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Saturday, 5th November 2011
Ur_Lugal
I have a recording of a TV documentary about Indian soldiers in the First World War.
In 1914 most of the Indian units rushed to France were initially placed in support roles and had exclusively "British" officers, who were paid in accordance with the number of different Indian languages they could speak.
Once the Indian units were moved up into the fighting zones of the Western Front like all units they suffered proportionately larger losses amongst the officer class than the rank and file, which posed a real problem because many of the units were based upon small regions and their dialects. A "general purpose" officer could be trained up more quickly than one with the appropriate langauge skills and cultural awareness.
The General in charge was able to point to heroic exploits in the Front Line of units like the Gurkhas to assert that the "sepoy" had proved himself the equal of the "European" in the combat zone and that suitable condidates could be found to fill the officer vacances.
Dehra Dun should be seen as part of the effort to build up institutions within India so that India could become autonomous.
Cass -
Message 7
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Monday, 7th November 2011
At one time during WW2 it may not have applied to all Infantry officers, but men selected to become officers were selected after Corps training. Volunteers and Conscripts for the Army first had 6 weeks Primary training, there had parade ground marching and rifle drill, taught how to aim and fire a rifle and Bren gun, (LMG, light machine gun) then fired a War Course on a rifle range, also taught how to lob a grenade and later a live one, also field craft as a means of avoiding detection by enemy. Near the end of the 6 weeks would be interviewed by a Personal Selection Officer, (PSO) if you were destined for the Infantry would be given a local Regiment or if possible the Regiment of your choice, or just assigned to a Regiment. Others to RA, RAMC, REMY etc. Infantry Corps Training was 10 weeks, at the end of 10 weeks men selected to be officers were interviewed, and those wishing to become officers received further interviews. After 7 days leave returned to camp to begin 6 weeks Battalion Training, then given 14 days Embarkation Leave then returning to camp to be formed into Drafts to join active units. (or something like that). Potential Officers received the same training as all Infantrymen but from then on I have no knowledge.
According to a TV programme I watched a United States Marine Pilot has 6 months to qualify as an Infantry Platoon Officer before he ever sees an Aircraft, goes through Infantry Training as all Marines. Before taking off in his aircraft he dons his flying helmet, then over that a camouflaged cloth, he or she is an Infantrymen First, a Pilot Second. -
Message 8
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Monday, 7th November 2011
Peter Ustinov explains in a typically humorous fashion how he "failed" the Officer Selection process.. Typical of the British Army perhaps he had shown too much intelligence.. People were sent down to crawl aling a system of underground tunnels at intervals.. Ustinov found himself bumping his head on the buttocks of the previous man, having caught him up. But Ustinov has seen the light of day ahead and had "smelled a rat". That was too obvious so he felt in the darkness and realised that there was a tunnel off to the side. Thus he caught up the man in front of him who confirmed quite angrily that he had gone to find an exit that was barred, so he had had to make his way back again.
Acting on this principle of treating obvious things with circumspection Ustinov completed the course in a time that the officers considered "impossible without cheating". Perhaps they also knew that Ustinov's father was a German diplomat based in London, which is why he had attended Westminster School with Tony Wedgwood Benn amongst others. Anyway he was left carrying out sentry duty at Dover Castle, until people realised that he expertise in film could be used for the war effort.. But that, as they say, is another story.
Cass -
Message 9
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Monday, 7th November 2011
One boy I knew of in the next barrack room entered the Army owing to fighting American soldiers during the War, he was close to 18 years of age and a British Army Officer said in court that the lad seemed to be over active and he could be made into a good soldier, so he entered the Army. After Infantry Corps we had 7 days leave prior to Battalion Training, on out return we learned that boy had been fighting Americans again when on leave and he was on a Charge and had to report to Company Office. Fighting in the British Army is a Crime and goes on your Crime Sheet, you are lectured, if you want to fight you can fight in the Gym in the ring with seconds all proper like, and those who wished to attend could enjoy the fight. Later I heard he had a Commission 2nd. Lt.
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Message 10
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 9th November 2011
stalti
The Sandhurst course includes basic infantry training. After Sandhurst, the newly-commissioned also go off to a Young Officers Course specific to their Arm or Service.
They also do a lot of training, with their men (and women) in their units - how that is organised depends on the unit. In particular, as other documentaries have shown, a unit deploying operationally will spend at least a year intensively training for that task.
As others have mentioned, some entrants will have been in the CCF/ACF and University OTCs. The Brigade of Guards runs "Brigade Squad", essentially basic training, for its sponsored cadets. Some cadets, more than in the past, will have served previously in the ranks. But previous training is not formally relied on.
All that said, it is not necessary to have done exactly the same training as you men in order to lead them.
LW
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