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Copy - cat: Lookalikes of the 17th Century.

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Monday, 24th October 2011

  Monday 24th October, 2011. BST:0954
  Re: Copy - cat.
  This will sound bizzare to many but there is a tale from the 17th Century which should perhaps be better known. It begins during the so called English Civil War at Worcester. After the battle of Worcester two men were captured with the 'baggage train' who aroused a certain amount of suspicion. They were imprisoned in Nottingham under the 'Castle Rock' until 1648 when they were taken to the Isle of Wight. There they were paraded in front of CHARLES I during his own imprisonment.
  The point of the story is that the two Spainards were the 'spitting image' of the imprisoned King himself. Asked if he knew either of them he replied that he had never met them before in his life and wondered aloud whether he was related to them. The man who had brought them from Nottingham under escort was none other than Oliver Cromwell himself and his reply in turn was bewildering. As far as Oliver Cromwell understood the two twins were Spainards, each called 'Juan' and the 'copy - cat' detail of a certain Elders Van Dyke. On display beside the two 'Juans' was a certain painting of CHARLES I by the so called 17th Century 'super - realist' Van Dyke (now on exhibition in the National Gallery, London). It showed the portrait head of CHARLES I in full - face, three - quarter and profile. The enquiry into the two 'Juans' by Oliver Cromwell only took forty - five minutes and ended with the two 'Juans' being 'shot out of hand' by Oliver Cromwell, making use of two horse pistols. The King was invited to return to his confinment and Oliver Cromwell watched while the bodies of the two interlopers were cremated on site. Oliver Cromwell noted as dusk fell that this 'tom - foolery' was typical of certain 'orders in conflict' and actually not the work of the King himself; he was sure of that. What concerned him most was that the two twins each had a 'club - foot'; no doubt a birth defect associated with sexual intercourse between brother and sister. A so called 'bastard - detail' which to him verged on the SATANIC.
  There the matter may have ended but for one incident during the 'Interregnum' of the 17th Century COMMONWEALTH. Oliver Cromwell LP (Lord Protector) actually came across another 'lookalike' in Nottingham in 1652. This interloper looked bizzarely like the future CHARLES II and called himself Charles: Duke of Newcastle. Most people of the time understood that the late king's son was in the Low Countries or even France. A few too many knew that he was making a living as a Mercenary and was known by another name as he was registered as a Mercenary in Antwerp. The interloper was interviewed and spoke good English with a Spainish accent. He was easily identified by his 'club - foot' and hanged from the castle gatehouse having said very little other than he was a 'tom - fool' and 'doomed to die; but then aren't we all: historically'.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 24th October 2011

  Hi David
  
  Parallel universe concepts, so popular now among theoretical physicists, not only make this type of thing possible but actually make it inevitable. Eventually.
  
  Sadly, in our universe, the battle of Worcester was fought in 1651 when Charles I had been dead for two years.
  
  TP

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  Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Monday, 24th October 2011

  Monday 24th October, 2011. BST:1443
  Re: Twin Probe.
  With respect to Twin Probe there were eight battles associated with Worcester during the the so called 1st English Civil War. The final or 9th Battle of Worcester during the 3rd English Civil War was indeed fought by CHARLES II on the 3rd September, 1651 and his defeat led to him escaping to France after hiding in or behind an oak tree and leading to the so called 'oak - apple day', which is still celebrated to this day. The battle of Worcester associated with the capture of the two interlopers was actually fought on the same day as the Battle of Nasby, inotherwords on the 12th June, 1645. This was the so called Eighth Battle of Worcester and was the third time a 'baggage train' was captured by the Parliamentary Forces. The 'weird detail' was that Worcester was used by CHARLES I as a 'holding centre' for ammunition which had to be bought and paid for in the form of GOLD BULLION. Apparently, whilst ammunition was not manufactured at Worcester it was stored there after being imported by an ARMS MERCHANT from Antwerp in the Low Countries throught the Port of Bristol.

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 24th October 2011

  Hi David
  
  I have no special knowledge of Worcester or the English Civil War so I certainly cannot debate this area from a position of strength. I know about Charles II's battle, and the battle of Powick Bridge in 1642. And that's it.
  
  But I would submit that the expression 'Battle of Worcester' would normally be taken to be the events of 1651 and it would have been helpful if you had explained that this was not the case. Oddly web searches for "8th Battle of Worcester" or "Battle Worcester 12th June 1645" have produced no hits. Could you give me a reference or source for further information?
  
  Thanks,
  
  TP

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• Message 5

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  Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011

  Tuesday 25th October, 2011. BST:1025
  Re: Twin Probe.
  With respect to Twin Probe; there is material vis. a vis. the 1st, 2nd and 3rd English Civil Wars which is available to research assistants through the good office of the Under - Secretary of State to the MOD (Ministry of Defence) and was previously in the possesion of the old WAR OFFICE. Notes by 'field commanders' of the NEW MODEL ARMY are held on file with the D.NI (Directorate. Naval Intelligence), ROSYTH NAVAL DOCKYARD and were previously in the possesion of the COMMONWEALTH FLEET.
  

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011

  Tuesday 25th October, 2011. BST:1040
  Re: WORCESTER.
  Further to the research undetaken at the weekendthere is additional information regarding Worcester and its importance to CHARLES I during the so called English Civil War. As far as I understand 'Prince Rupert' or 'Rupert of the Rhine' was a Mercenary registered in Antwerp, the Low Countries. He was actually a Spainard called 'Juan Cristobal'; who made money principally as an ARMS MERCHANT based in Antwerp. He was prepared to supply the CROWN with ammunition and worked with the Town Council of Worcester to build a 'holding centre' for ammunition, just outside the town. He was protected by a 'cavalry force' of 1227 'horse - soldiers', or foreign mercenaries that he bought and paid for with his own money.

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• Message 7

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011

  David
  
  Please don't think me offensive but you will appreciate that those of us who have studied, what shall I say, the conventional career of Prince Rupert will find this very difficult to accept. Will you tell us where this research was undertaken and what the sources are so that we can examine them for ourselves?
  
  As far as the Battle of Worcester is concerned do you mean that the Under - Secretary of State to the MOD (who is Lord Astor I think) has access to information on the English Civil War that is unpublished by any academic historian? How do you know this? Did you see this information personally?
  
  TP

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• Message 8

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011

  As far as I understand 'Prince Rupert' or 'Rupert of the Rhine' was a Mercenary registered in Antwerp, the Low Countries. He was actually a Spainard called 'Juan Cristobal'; who made money principally as an ARMS MERCHANT based in Antwerp. Β 
  
  What happened to the real Prince Rupert and how did this imposter get accepted by his close relatives?

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011

  Tuesday 25th October, 2011. BST:1314
  Re: Twin Probe.
  With respect to Twin Probe; the records of the COMMONWEALTH FLEET are harboured by the D.NI (Directorate. Naval Intelligence) and include notes by 'field commanders' of the NEW MODEL ARMY which total 384 individual sheets; written in black ink on what appears at first sight to be 'brown wrapping' paper. For the record; the 384 individual sheets were scanned electonically between 1984 and 1987. Electronic copies are available on the MAINFRAME of the MOD (Ministry of Defence) and date between 1642 and 1651. The original 'artefacts' are preserved in the 'Earl of Leicester's Collection'; ROSYTH NAVAL DOCKYARD under 'lock and key'. They are not ; I repeat NOT: part and parcel of the 'National Archives'.

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