History HubΒ permalink
A 'black viking'?
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Β
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Thursday, 20th October 2011
David Mac Ritchie, a Scottish antiquarian of the early 20thC described a 'black viking' -a prominent Viking of the eleventh century was Thorhall, who was aboard the ship that carried the early Vikings to the shores of North America.
Thorhall was "the huntsman in summer, and in winter the steward of Eric the Red. He was, it is said, a large man, and strong, black, and like a giant, silent, and foul-mouthed in his speech, and always egged on Eric to the worst; he was a bad Christian."
Another Viking, more notable than Thorhall, was Earl Thorfinn, "the most distinguished of all the earls in the Islands." Thorfinn ruled over nine earldoms in Scotland and Ireland, and died at the age of seventy-five. His widow married the king of Scotland. Thorfinn was described as "one of the largest men in point of stature, and ugly, sharp featured, and somewhat tawny, and the most martial looking man... It has been related that he was the foremost of all his men."
Is it possible? -
Message 2
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 21st October 2011
A lot of Vikings were called "black" (svart). It is also the root of the English word "swarthy". Up to the internet and an explosion of claims that this meant they were African it was always accepted that this simply indicated their hair colour in keeping with the terminology then employed.
In Irish the Vikings (Lochlainnigh) were generally divided between the fair strangers (fionn ghaill) and the black strangers (dubh ghaill). Fingal, Baldoyle, Ballydoyle and a few other places indicate this origin. The fair strangers arrived at a time when the Viking incursions in Ireland were predominantly of Norwegian people, the black signified Danes.
Incidentally, both in Norwegian and in Irish the word for negroid people at the time of the Vikings was "blue" (blΓ¥ or gorm). This reflects the quality of light as reflected by dark skin. Those who advocate we should consider "black" references as African in the context of the sagas and other contemporary writings tend to avoid acknowledging this fact, and therefore escape having to explain why the writers would elect to use a confusing reference when a perfectly adequate one existed. Not only that, but in choosing to ignore this rather inconvenient fact they also therefore rather ironically deprive themselves of the opportunity to theorise about African incursions into and influence in Europe in the late Iron Age which indeed are supported by such references - in Irish at least. -
Message 3
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Friday, 21st October 2011
Thanks Nordmann, if anyone was going to make it clearer in an informative way, I thought it'd be you.
Yes, I was aware of Halfdan the Black and also references to Danes as 'dark' (as opposed to fairer Norsemen), but wondered about this Eirik the Red saga reference.
This might explain the 'black Irish'? -
Message 4
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 21st October 2011
Hi Hereword
This site makes a more reasoned stab at enumerating possible black influence in Irish history going right back to the Formorians in the assumed Bronze Age (though they are rather too definite about interpreting the name in English).
It concludes with the passage you cited in your OP, though prefaced with the remark that "black" would most normally indicate hair colour.
The term "black Irish" is mostly used now to indicate the Caribbean people (most notably in Montserrat) who have Irish surnames, and even a slightly Irish accent, but are genetically African in the main - the blending of the two being occasioned by early English colonisation policies in the area and the use of both ethnic groups as slave labour. -
Message 5
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Friday, 21st October 2011
Thanks, Nordmann.
Your info about the Viking words for 'negroid' (ie. Dubh Gael?) whom the vikings had invariably encountered in North Africa and perhaps as slaves elsewhere in the Med, are interesting, as I knew Dublin means 'Black pool' . -
Message 6
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 21st October 2011
The Viking word for negro was actually blΓ¥mann. Dubh gaill was the Gaelic for Danish Viking settlers.
-
Message 7
Posted by NormanRHood (U14656514) on Saturday, 22nd October 2011
Hollywood has to remake history to please modern audiences and culture
like a black guy in Kevin Costners robin hood
i hate all this modern bs and the rewriting of history just to please MODERN BORING PEOPLE who do not know any history -
Message 8
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 22nd October 2011
A Norwegian book I read recently about Viking history states in the preface "the most important function of history (as a study) is to safeguard the truth against modern sensibilities".
During the 9th century and the formation of the "storehæren" (the Great Army) Viking fleets raided North African cities, and this brought them into direct confrontation with the Aghlabid Caliphate on its home soil (they also raided Aghlabid Sicily and Malta). The Aghlabid army included sub-Saharan mercenaries, which the author of the Egla Saga describes as "the ferocious blue men of Ifriquia, more akin to beast than man". Hardly an enlightened view of negroid people, and given that the saga was recorded three centuries after the event seemingly an opinion of black people which had not deviated in the interim. I would tend to believe that this opinion more fairly represents Northern European views of the period, and also tends to contradict the assumption that exposure to exotic people and places expanded the Viking mind in the manner required to contemplate assimilation of black people into their own culture. -
Message 9
Posted by NormanRHood (U14656514) on Saturday, 22nd October 2011
im part Swedish and Cherokee
i read or listened to tapes of some viking saga
they called natives in America skralings i think
and thought they were ugly maybe
natives arent ugly -but vikings werent into breeding with others at that time i dont think
but maybe there was a tribe of ugly Indians
the tribe in Nevada with winneamuca Sarah i think cornered a tribe of cannibal natives and brunt them alive in a cave i think i read in her book
i dont like the word ugly but if some are demon possessed they look more weirder than they would if they were not demon possessed so its mainly demonic in being "ugly" i think -
Message 10
Posted by marchog_du_aka_Stoggler (U14998493) on Saturday, 22nd October 2011
Hollywood has to remake history to please modern audiences and culture
like a black guy in Kevin Costners robin hoodΒ
I thought that Morgan Freeman was playing a Muslim from the Holy Land in that film. Are there not people from the Arabian peninsula, Egypt and other parts of the middle east who are rather dark? -
Message 11
Posted by NormanRHood (U14656514) on Saturday, 22nd October 2011
yeah theyre dark as coals
Muslims made slaves out of Brits swedes ,dutch from 1000 to 1600ad -
Message 12
Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
The term "black Irish" is mostly used now to indicate the Caribbean peopleΒ
Where? In my experience it is used to mean a certain typical Irish colouring with dark hair. -
Message 13
Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Your info about the Viking words for 'negroid' (ie. Dubh Gael?) whom the vikings had invariably encountered in North Africa and perhaps as slaves elsewhere in the Med, are interesting, as I knew Dublin means 'Black pool' .Β
No, nothing to do with Negroid. Nordmann says in his first post that Black Irish meant Danes. I don't know about that - but it means Irish people with dark hair (thre are quite a lot of them, the majority of Irish people have brown hair) and usually blue or green eyes.
I have never heard it used to mean anything to do with people in the Caribbean or of African descent. -
Message 14
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Yes, I'm concurring that 'black' in past descriptions alluded to body hair- in medieval times it was armour colour too- ie. The 'Black' Prince.
I have read that Irish/Scots and blacks were both slaves in the Caribbean.
If I remember correctly, 'Red Neck' alludes to whites transported and used to do manual/slave work in the colonies. This would literally be the colouring of the upper back and neck of people being worked in the baking sun all day.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Β to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ iD
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ navigation
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ links
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Β© 2014 The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.