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The Gaelic language on revival?
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Thomas (U14985443) on Friday, 30th September 2011
I can´t understand the Gaelic language, but considering this in the light that the Irish, Scottish and the Welsh have this as their native language from ancient times as a common heritage. I would like to know from people from these countries whether they´ve learned Gaelic in when they went to school or just by their parents and what they prefer to use, the Gaelic or the English language.
I´ve come to this because it seems to me that Gaelic might be on revival when thinking about the broadcasting programms in Gaelic, also on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ but as well elsewhere. It has been often stated that the Gaelic language is more spoken and maintained in some areas, like the Gaeltacht in Ireland and so more seen as a matter of the rural country people.
Given that Gaelic was the native language of their forebearers, the English language isn´t anymore seen as that dominating like in the past centuries, but it is more in use because it´s easier to communicate with it.
Comments are appreciated. -
Message 2
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Friday, 30th September 2011
When we stayed on Barra (Western Isles) in a b&b, our landlady and her family spoke Gaelic to each other as a matter of course because they had learned it at home
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Message 3
Posted by dmatt47 (U13073434) on Friday, 30th September 2011
Scottish Gaelic has certainly had a revival, helped by having a dedicated Â鶹ԼÅÄ tv channel. It woud be fair to say that Gaelic is spoken mainly in the Western Isles and as far as Inverness with most Scottish places have both Scottish and Gaelic names shown. It would however be wrong to assume that Gaelic is the spoken word of their forebears as the Gaels were just one of the ancient tribes of Scotland, eg there were also the Picts. I have heard that Scottish and Irish Gaaelic are completely different although they came fom the same historical base, ie Ireland.
Although I can't master the Gaelic language, it is probably easier to communicate in Gaelic than English, which is one of the hardest languages to understand with more than one spelling to indicate a different meaning. I think you have to look at the revival of Gaelic in terms of attempts to stop the emigration of people from the Scottish islands and mainland which was a problem in the past. -
Message 4
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Friday, 30th September 2011
I notice that in India the Hindu Nationalists seem to have abandonned their idea of making Hindi the common language of India- in place of English..
In the global economy having probably the largest population of English-speaking university graduates on Earth is proving vital to the present upsurge in the Indian economy: and the Irish economic miracle owed a great deal to the fact that firms like Microsoft (about 25% of the Irish Economy) were very pleased to find such a low cost English-speaking place within the EEC.
So it seemed to me in my time in South Wales in the mid-Sixties that the Welsh had got it right.. They learned Welsh in school (as did my English father in his "valleys'" childhood).. and English and then, having mastered two languages carried on to learn a third or a fourth..
Having gone to quite a lot of trouble to bring our own children up to be bilingual in French and English we worry that they will end up being monolingual.. though our son, in fact, has married a Croatian and has some conversational ability in this subject..
The important thing is that we all move on.. But as I often pointed out to pupils there are many places in the world in which it is taken for granted and normal that people should be able to speak many languages.. These days it comes as something of a pleasant surprise to find someone young who is even articulate in one.
Cass -
Message 5
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 30th September 2011
I think the percentage of Gaelic speakers in Scotland is low - under 2%, whilst over 20% of Welsh peole speak some Welsh. They aren't the same language, nor even from the same group within the Celtic langage family, Gaelg, Gaelic and Erse being Goidelic, Welsh, Breton and Kernowek (which was extinct, but has now been resurrected to the point that around 2,000 people are now reckoned to be fluent speakers) are Brythonic. AIUI, North and South Welsh speakers have difficulty understanding each other, though up to C13th, they, the Cornish, and Bretons could communicate faily freely with each other.
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Message 6
Posted by MB (U177470) on Friday, 30th September 2011
Gaelic wasn't the native language of Scotland, there was no Scottish Gaelic tradition in some parts of Scotland.
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Message 7
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Saturday, 1st October 2011
Hi Thomas!
I don't understand Gaelic either. I know only one word, the word for "and", but occasionally I hear folk saying something like "slandjy-va" as a toast before drinking. Some of them might even be able to spell it correctly in Gaelic.
Nowadays I don't know anyone who can speak Gaelic, though I have met one or two, while living in Edinburgh and Fife, during the past 50+ years. Neither my Scottish parents, Scottish grandparents or any of my Scottish ancestors (as far as I can trace) spoke Gaelic. Some local placenames may have been derived from Gaelic (or they may be from Pictish, who can possibly say?) but whatever, that naming happened well over 1000 years ago.
Don't get me wrong; I'm much in favour of helping Gaelic speakers to retain their language. Give them support, extra money and facilities to continue. Make films and recordings of old Gaelic speakers, try to ensure that nothing is lost.
But please don't inflict the language on me, or on the rest of us in that large part of Scotland where Gaelic was never spoken, or only spoken for a brief period around 800 to 1100 AD.
It might be an interesting subject to study as a hobby, but when I see that the nameboards on Haymarket railway station (in Edinburgh) have recently been translated into Gaelic, I have to wonder. How many folk around Haymarket can even pronounce the Gaelic translation? It would make as much sense to put up translations in German or Polish or Chinese.
Maybe those unfamiliar Gaelic words will give foreign tourists the notion that they are now in Brigadoon or Tir-nan-Og. (Haymarket!) Big deal.
Frankly, I have no wish to have to study another foreign language. French and German were hard enough, and they have been a lot - yes, a lot - more useful to me than a knowledge of Gaelic ever could have been.
But - it was spoken in parts of Scotland long ago, so (they say) it's a valuable part of my "heritage". Well, Pictish and Latin were spoken here too. I'm sorry Pictish seems to have disappeared completely, and I'm sorry I wasn't taught Latin. But Gaelic? No thank you. -
Message 8
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Saturday, 1st October 2011
Hi Thomas, I don't have the Gaelic either, my family are all from central Scotland for as far back as I'm aware of and as Jak pointed out, there was only a short period when Scots Gaelic was spoken here. The previous language of Strathclyde was much closer to modern Welsh and Cumbric. My in laws, however, hail from Barra in the Hebrides and some of them are native Gaelic speakers. I would hate to see the language die out in the GÃ idhealtachd and I agree it should be supported but I've mentioned before that the imposition of bi lingual signs are a bugbear of mine, all our stations and many place names are rendered that way and I just don't see the point.
There is a bit of a revival underway but the reasons are not entirely clear. For some it may be an affirmation of identity, for some a political statement and for others it's basically a fad, a pc and quite trendy thing to do to have your children educated in a Gaelic setting. I have one friend who chose to send her son to the Gaelic primary school in Glasgow and caused him a great deal of unhappiness by isolating him from his local friends. She also called him Dougal which was the name of a dog in a popular children's animated TV series. Oh dear! -
Message 9
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 1st October 2011
I have huge misgivings about archaic languages receiving artificial resuscitation, and especially when the process is attemptedly justified or promoted by notions of a cultural identity which, upon examination, are often ones subjectively and quite modernly moulded according to relatively recent concepts - of which the most virulent in this regard must surely be nationalism. It inevitably leads to a situation whereby the language being "rescued" becomes simply a version of its former self. Where it had once developed dynamically it now becomes, through necessity, a "managed" entity, and where it once served primarily as a mode of communication which crossed more divides than could stop it - hence its establishment as a general tongue in the first place - it now serves often simply as a badge advertising a particular and relatively recently defined divide which its "rescuers" refuse to cross.
Irish - Gaeilge - is a beautiful language. It uses a grammar and vocabulary with which certain things can be phrased that can not easily and sometimes never be expressed in other languages, even in English for all its diversity of nuance serviced by its considerable vocabular variations. It is also the key to understanding a sizeable chunk of the denotation employed in what is now an English-speaking environment. Probably most importantly it is the key to understanding the psyche of many modern day English-speakers themselves, whether they know it or not, as its vestiges continue to infiltrate use of English by these people, and the subtle but persistent discords represented by these people socially, culturally and politically could never be fully explained without recourse to the tool an understanding of Irish provides.
This is a good argument for its preservation. But preservation, however successfully achieved, is no guarantee of a natural proliferation of the preserved language's use. For the reasons stated at the outset I suspect terribly the wisdom in attempting to achieve this proliferation through artificial means. For reasons stated subsequently however I am prepared to tolerate this often misguided enthusiasm, and even the often comedic effect it has on what it is trying to make popular, if in the long run the ultimate effect is that the historical language, complete with a comprehension of how it once functioned and how it developed, survives.
I am glad I can speak it therefore, but for reasons fundamentally different than those for which I am glad, for example, to speak Norwegian. -
Message 10
Posted by MB (U177470) on Saturday, 1st October 2011
There has been resistance to the spending on spending on bilingual road signs etc in areas with no Gaelic tradition particularly Caithness. But I have seen letters from Gaelic speakers unhappy at the amount of money being spent. I saw one letter from a community councillor on six figure sums being spent on each road often when requests for much smaller sums for road safety measures had been turned down.
There is a lot of inconsistency in the policy. Lots of organisation make statements about how important it is to support the language but then don't use it themselves - there is no equivalent to "HEDDLU" on police cars even in the Western Isles. -
Message 11
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Saturday, 1st October 2011
"HEDDLU" - ???? Que?
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Message 12
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 1st October 2011
But - it was spoken in parts of Scotland long ago, so (they say) it's a valuable part of my "heritage". Well, Pictish and Latin were spoken here too. I'm sorry Pictish seems to have disappeared completely, and I'm sorry I wasn't taught Latin. But Gaelic?Ìý
Recently I watched the movie 'The Eagle' (2010) based on Rosemary Sutcliff's 1954 novel 'The Eagle of the Ninth' about a Roman soldier who travels north of Hadrian's Wall incognito in search of the lost standard of a legion. In the film the Britons south of the wall are depicted as speaking a language which sounds like Welsh (maybe is) while those north of the wall were depicted as speaking Gaelic.
To my surprise, however, I noticed in the film's end-credits that 'Irish language advisors' were listed. Does anyone know if it really was Irish Gaelic which was spoken in the film and if so, then why Irish Gaelic and not Scots Gaelic? I can only imagine that if it was indeed Irish Gaelic which used in the film then the Scotland's Bòrd na Gà idhlig might be quite put out to have been sidelined in this way. -
Message 13
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Saturday, 1st October 2011
Unless the Romans had a notion to march through Argyll that they haven't written about, I can't imagine how they might have encountered anyone at all speaking a Q Celtic language and even then there's real debate as to whether it was spoken there before the 4th century. The' Welsh sounding' Brythonic was the tongue spoken apart from Pictish and it's usually now considered another variant of P Celtic.
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Message 14
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Sunday, 2nd October 2011
One of my great-grandmothers was a Gaelic speaker from Sutherland. She spent most of her life in the East End of London so only lapsed into her mother-tongue when angered. As a non-English speaker she took common cause with her Yiddish speaking Jewish neighbours and friends. I can swear in both of those languages which is nothing to be proud of.
Her descendants have struggled with trying to revive our knowledge and at times I have managed to string a sentence together only to lose the skill for lack of practise.
A friend in Cork is a Gaelic speaker and his language is decidedly different from Hebridean Gaelic. I expect it is more a matter of pronunciation and long-term cultural nuances.
I have always viewed Welsh as having a different root to Gaelic. It is more of a living language but I am left feeling that it is more the property of people who take pleasure in being different. But that is purely subjective as is my love for Cwm Rhondda sung in Welsh by a male voice choir.
I have some Gaelic poetry on the shelf here in a carefully chosen book with the English on the other page like those Latin grammars! The poetry is moving and powerful coming from referencing both the landscape, the flora and fauna. Very much a spirit of place thing, I feel.
To lose these languages would be a traumatic loss as it is the cultural tradition which they embody which is far more important. -
Message 15
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 2nd October 2011
stanilic
I agree with you.. The whole of human creativity that has been put into forms that can cross space and time are part of the treasure that is the heritage of us all..Surely we have to agree with D.H. Lawrence who raged against the way that indigenous cultures were being lost and undermined around the world in the Twenties.. But I also agree with Chief Luthuli who reacted that tendency to think that people should be restricted to "their own" culture- as was attempted in Apartheid.. Seperate development is too easily no development.
As for the Welsh language I heard a talk on the Radio as a child that explained that Welsh is connected to same language family as the language of the Basques.
In early 1967 I sat in front of two girls on the coach from Cardiff to Bristol who were chatting away- with words like "television" sticking out as recognisable pieces from time to time.. But I suppose all languages have to fit in the new words for new things.. I suppose those too are not the property of any one language or culture- unless its the language of mathematics and the culture of science and technology.
Cass -
Message 16
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Sunday, 2nd October 2011
... there is no equivalent to "HEDDLU" on police cars even in the Western Isles. Ìý
This baffled me, MB, but now I see it's the Welsh for "Police". I'll be very careful, if I ever visit Wales again. Last time there I twigged what "Tacsi" meant, though couldn't really see the point of changing it from "Taxi".
I'm quite glad they don't use the Gaelic for "Police" in the far north-west; nor the Gaelic for "Steep Hill", "Sharp Bend", "Danger Ahead" etc. Or at least I hope they don't. -
Message 17
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Sunday, 2nd October 2011
Welsh is connected to the same language family as Breton. The Basque language, on the other hand, is quite different.
The word 'television' (being a 20th century greco-latin hybrid) is, of course, equally new in English as in Welsh. -
Message 18
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 2nd October 2011
Vizzer
Exactly the point i was trying to make.
Cass -
Message 19
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Sunday, 2nd October 2011
As for the Welsh language I heard a talk on the Radio as a child that explained that Welsh is connected to same language family as the language of the Basques.Ìý
Cass - no, there is no known link between any of the celtic languages and any of the Basque language (or rather languages, as in addition to the relatively new "standardised" Basque language called Euskara, there are at least 5 different, and not fully mutually comprehensible dialects) - indeed, no link between them and any of the Indo-European languages. Are you sure they weren't referring to Breton rather than Basque? -
Message 20
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 2nd October 2011
Ur-Lungal
Well I did say it was my childhood-- I was perhaps ten or eleven years old listening to the Third Programme.. The main drift was that Welsh was not connected with the other Indo-European languages . I did mention the time frame because I expected linguistics to have moved on over more than 50 years.
Cass -
Message 21
Posted by MB (U177470) on Monday, 3rd October 2011
Unless the Romans had a notion to march through Argyll that they haven't written about, I can't imagine how they might have encountered anyone at all speaking a Q Celtic language and even then there's real debate as to whether it was spoken there before the 4th century. The' Welsh sounding' Brythonic was the tongue spoken apart from Pictish and it's usually now considered another variant of P Celtic.Ìý
Didn't they make the film in Ireland so probably easier to get Irish Gaelic speaking actors or extras.
Presumably the Roman soldiers were speaking English in the film and that seems to be accepted so no more of an anachronism for the others to be speaking Irish. The producer probably just wanted there to be two different languages for effect. -
Message 22
Posted by MB (U177470) on Monday, 3rd October 2011
... there is no equivalent to "HEDDLU" on police cars even in the Western Isles. Ìý
This baffled me, MB, but now I see it's the Welsh for "Police". I'll be very careful, if I ever visit Wales again. Last time there I twigged what "Tacsi" meant, though couldn't really see the point of changing it from "Taxi".
I'm quite glad they don't use the Gaelic for "Police" in the far north-west; nor the Gaelic for "Steep Hill", "Sharp Bend", "Danger Ahead" etc. Or at least I hope they don't.Ìý
You soon get used to seeing HEDDLU on cars and uniforms when in Wales. I am sure that Northern Police and Strathclyde Police both have grandiose statements on their websites and publications about how the value and support the Gaelic language so never understood why they do not use more on signage.
It's the same with Edinburgh Government signs telling us how generous they are being in spending money (and the English taxpayers' money of course :=) ) but the sign will be in English.
It seems that it is only the poor motorist who has been to suffer the bilingual signs. They claim to only change ones that need changing but in practice when an area is done they change all the signs. One side effect is that the Gaelic names are often much longer than the English name which results in large areas of reflective material on the signs that can be quite a distraction at night. Also I saw one erected that was so large that it projected into an adjacent car park resulting in someone smashing their rear window on it then one parking bay having to be coned off until the sign was raised about a year or so later - that particular sign must have cost many thousands of pounds! -
Message 23
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 3rd October 2011
Didn't they make the film in Ireland so probably easier to get Irish Gaelic speaking actors or extras
Ìý
It was shot in Scotland and Hungary. I suppose we can be but grateful that poor Marquis Aquila, confused enough as he must already have been to discover the expansion of the Dal Riada three centuries too early, didn't stumble into a land where these premature infilitrators didn't share the highlands with a horde of caber-tossing Magyars.
I hear that the author of the screenplay, Jeremy Briock, is co-originator of TV's Casualty series. Nuff said. -
Message 24
Posted by MB (U177470) on Monday, 3rd October 2011
Perhaps they should have used Doric as the substitute for Pictish in The Eagle of the North? -
Message 25
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Monday, 3rd October 2011
Or Hungarian - who could have complained?
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Message 26
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 3rd October 2011
Or Hungarian - who could have complained?Ìý Anyone who wanted to - that's a Uralic language (Finno-Ugric group) and thus not even a remote relation.
Romanian, now - or Romansch ......... -
Message 27
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Monday, 3rd October 2011
Yeah, sure, but since it was being filmed in Hungary...
Anyway, if the 'Romans' were speaking English, any foreign tongue would have done - Utopi-speak or whatever. -
Message 28
Posted by Thomas (U14985443) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Hi Jak,
Thanks for your post and also thanks to those of the other posters on here.
You´ve, for instance, confirmed me what I was guessing on the use of the Gaelic language.
The point I tried to make is, that the maintenance of the Gaelic language, as a general term for the different types of that language family (?) is more a modern thing than it was provided by some institutions. What was more a matter of private initative, like the founding of the Gaelic League in Ireland in the 19th Century, has been taken up by the Â鶹ԼÅÄ in their broadcasting and facilities on the internet.
In Ireland, so I´ve learned, the learning of the Irish language is on the curiculum in Irish Schools. It´s naturally according to the Irish Constitution in which Irish is the official language of the Republic of Ireland and equal to that it is English. This is similar to another country which was a British colony. In Malta they also have both languages, Maltese and English. The difference in this is, that the English didn´t seek to oppress their native language, but naturally seek to get more space of influence of the English language. This is not only a bi-lingual country, but also Italian is also spoken by many Maltese people. So the Maltese use English normally when in business with non-Maltese speakers, among themselves they use their own language.
The use of English in the UK and in the Rep. o. Ireland in the first place is, aside from the English, something that I would consider as the result of Anglisation in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Interesting in this is, that in Wales during WWII, there were more people spaeking Welsh than English. If I´m not wrong in recalling this from the Â鶹ԼÅÄ (there is a link to Wales and its history on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ History homepage), it was to such an extent that some of the Welsh people neither understand English, let alone to speak it. So they´d never learned it, which seems a bit odd imo.
It´s just some theoretical consideration from me, that in case Scotland might vote for its independence and set up a new constitution, I wonder whether they would follow the Irish example. The point in this is, that if some Irish citizen who is to apply to serve the civil service, he is obliged to master both languages, Irish and English. Same way in other bi-lingual countries which is quite understandable, as I tried to point out in the example of Malta. It´s even harder if in a country of two official languages, the English language is in use in the first place.
When we visited Ireland last year, we went to Galway and it was just there, that I´ve heard a man, probably in my age, talking to his son in Irish. I know that Galway belongs to the Gaeltacht area, but it was something remarkable to me.
Some years ago, on the train from Preston to Glasgow, I´ve seen a Placard on the road reading "Fáilte ... Alba". Which means welcome to Scotland. Same as they like to say in Ireland "Fáilte" for welcome. As well as "Sláinte-ye" for Cheers.
I think that such "revival" of Gaelic is made more possible to a wider public by the developments of modern Britain. More freedom than that was in the Victorian or Edwardian times, some 100 years ago.
Cheers
Thomas -
Message 29
Posted by Patrick Wallace (U196685) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
It´s just some theoretical consideration from me, that in case Scotland might vote for its independence and set up a new constitution, I wonder whether they would follow the Irish example. Ìý Probably not, for the reasons given above. Gaelic was never the native language of all of Scotland, and there would be pressure for equal status for Lallans Scots as well.
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Message 30
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
(a) Perhaps the "dumbing down" of current English usage also makes it easier to diversify one's effort at mastering a language..
(B) As has been noted in previous posts, Scottish schoolteachers were very insistent that their pupils should master standard English, because the Scottish educational system had really been set up in the 1690's after a period of disastrous years for farming when up to 20% of all the population were wandering around in gangs of licenced beggars.
The Scottish Parliament passed a law requiring the establishment of elementary education for all, and over the next 150 years thanks in no small part to their superior education the Scots were able to prosper within Great Britain so that T.B. Macaulay could say in a debate in the House of Commons in the late 1840's that wherever you looked in the UK or its Empire the "Scotsman" was either in the top job or the one just below.
Cass -
Message 31
Posted by Thomas (U14985443) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Probably not, for the reasons given above. Gaelic was never the native language of all of Scotland, and there would be pressure for equal status for Lallans Scots as well.Ìý
Well, what language was in use then, before the Scottish were switching to use the English language for conversations?
Would you say that each clan has had his own language, rather than merely differing by some local dialects? -
Message 32
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Hi Thomas,
Dear old wiki has a not too inaccurate description here although there are couple of provisos. Kathleen Forsyth is of the opinion that Pictish is related to P Celtic although there are some place names in the area that might just possibly be pre Indo European and also the dating and process of the introduction of Scots Gaelic in Argyll and the islands is quite contentious. One school of thought does not consider that this was an introduction with migration from Ireland but that this was one community on both sides of the North Channel and linked by sea from very early on.
The article also tends to underplay the Scandinavian influence, I would suggest.
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Message 33
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
I think it depends on the particular area of Scotland Thomas. The Highlands and western Isles (being descended mainly from the Irish) spoke Gaelic for instance but the lowlands and the eastern part were different. There is a Norse influence there also.
Hopefully someone with more knowledge will be along soon, and you don't need to depend on my overly simplistic and scratchy explanation! -
Message 34
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Probably Catigern will come along and remind us that the Highlands and the Western Isles were a separate Kingdom- or possible plural- probably for historically longer than they were part of a Kingdom of Scotland that disappeared in 1707.
Cass -
Message 35
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
.. and that Orkney and Shetland were Norwegian ...
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Message 36
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Well, what language was in use then, before the Scottish were switching to use the English language for conversations?Ìý
People in much of what's now Scotland have been speaking a variety of English since the seventh century.
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Message 37
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
While looking for something quite different, I came across an article on news net scotland all one word with a dot and a com called Scottish placenames for Scottish places. If you scroll down it's in the bottom left of the page. The full website address is blocked from posting, presumably because some of the articles are in Gaelic which appears to be considered a foreign language by the Â鶹ԼÅÄ. Make of that what you will. G**gle also seems to think it's in Irish! No wonder the Gaels get rycht angrie.
Although quite long, it's an interesting read and it puts rather a different perspective on the use of Gaelic place names on signs by proposing that the ones we are familiar with are often gentrified Anglicisations of the original Scots or Gaelic names and the Gaelic rendering can return them to closer to their earlier forms and meanings.
Should there be a Scots version of a place name on the signs as well? These boards could get very large indeed. -
Message 38
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Oh, thanks, Ferval.
Very depressing. All this "nation" and "heritage" bull, and getting back to the "original spelling" baloney.
I think I'll emigrate. Maybe to Nottingham, where they won't be trying to revive the ancient Anglo-Saxon (or whatever it was) spelling.
Snotinham? -
Message 39
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Come on Jak, cheer up. These days anything that keeps the sign manufacturers in a job is a bonus.
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Message 40
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
I wish I had shares in a sign-printing firm. The back seats in the Edinburgh buses face each other, and are surrounded by eight - yes, eight - yellow notices asking folk to keep their feet off the seat opposite. They have no effect at all, except perhaps to encourage the practice.
There seems to be an outbreak of notices. And to think we used to laugh at the Germans, with all their Achtungs and Verbotens. -
Message 41
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
Ah, but are they bi or even tri lingual yet?
It's only a matter of time. -
Message 42
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Tuesday, 4th October 2011
What a brilliant idea.
The bus notices could be in Gaelic. Nobody (well 99%) wouldn't understand them, but what difference would that make? -
Message 43
Posted by MB (U177470) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
Well, what language was in use then, before the Scottish were switching to use the English language for conversations?Ìý
People in much of what's now Scotland have been speaking a variety of English since the seventh century.Ìý
It tends not to be very popular when it is pointed out that it is just another dialect of English with similarities to the other dialects in the North of England. Some like to claim that it is a distinct separate language which it obviously is not, no more than any other dialect. -
Message 44
Posted by MB (U177470) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
Although quite long, it's an interesting read and it puts rather a different perspective on the use of Gaelic place names on signs by proposing that the ones we are familiar with are often gentrified Anglicisations of the original Scots or Gaelic names and the Gaelic rendering can return them to closer to their earlier forms and meanings. Ìý
But often modern towns did not really exist when Gaelic was the main language (if it ever was in that particular area), there was often just a collection of very small settlements so the Gaelic name for the town can be quite artificial. This applies where I live, I have never heard the Gaelic name of the town used in ordinary conversation and I know some native Gaelic speakers. -
Message 45
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
Hi MB,
You've probably gathered from the gist of this thread that I tend to agree with you. How some of these innovations would help to maintain Gaelic for those to whom it is a living and functioning language I'm not clear. If anything they tend to give the tongue something of the character of an endangered species kept alive by preservation in a zoo.
The National Museum in Edinburgh has a whole set of proposals for the use of Gaelic in display boards and by staff despite consultation indicating there is no demand for it. If you are interested, you can download the document here
Am I being cynical when I suspect that there's some rather well paid jobs and quango places relying on this? -
Message 46
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
I think that the "endangered species" concept is quite relevant because we are in a world in which the way ahead is so uncertain that anyone can claim an inalienable right to be funded and supported-- just in case..
Charles Kingsley wrote that the sins of incivilization are worse than those of civilization- because they often prove fatal . But civilization leads to all kinds of lives that are not capable of surviving on their own being kept as alive as they can be through the Civilized action of others. {Eurozone crisis]
Kingsley and Thomas Carlyle- in part his inspiration- are now recognised as at least proto-Nazi, but I think that we are losing the idea that in a free country people are free to act as they see fit. In what David Cameron is calling "The Broken Society", it has become accepted as "normal" that the State can intervene in all areas of life employing its powers of coercion and compulsion.
In terms of local language I suppose one of my most relevant experiences was acquiring some competence in Kingston Patois when I was teaching in the Brixton region at the time of immigration. I recall a Sociology colleague who suggested that the pupils/students should be allowed to use patois for their written work.. Any intelligent "West Indian" pupils or parent realised that such "apartheid" would at best give them some advantages should Brixton become some kind of Bantustan, but would lock them into a ghetto.
My Polish colleague sent her children to Polish School on Saturday, and many of my Chinese pupils attended Chinese school.
Cass -
Message 47
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
How some of these innovations would help to maintain Gaelic for those to whom it is a living and functioning language I'm not clear. If anything they tend to give the tongue something of the character of an endangered species kept alive by preservation in a zoo.Ìý
It is a quandary and rather akin to the arguments for or against the renovation of historical sites.
On the one hand, the loss of a language, historical site or even a species is part of the natural evolution. In other words the loss is also part of history.
On the other, if we artificially interfere we are able to preservate for future generations.
Reminds me of the Temple of Zeus in Athens, with one of it's columns lying on the ground. I've often overheard tourists remarking that it should be put back up, but the earthquake that caused it's collapse is also part of history. -
Message 48
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
The existence of languages with small numbers of speakers often reflects the social structure of populations. The native Americans of North America developed several hundred different languages belonging to scores of different language families, because their world was highly fragmented and even a small band could use a language of its own and get away with it.
Modern, urban society is highly interconnected: "Freedom" has been limited, not so much by some abstract entity called "state", but by the collective dependencies all of us have on each other, of which the state is merely the expression and the symbol. Our large cities could survive only a few days if their connections with the outer world would be broken. The extraordinary freedom enjoyed by a warrior in a small band with no fixed political or military leadership and the simplest of economic models, is no longer possible. But also the collective freedom of small groups of people to speak whatever language that suits them is gone --- a language that connects with a wide outside world is now a necessity for survival.
Yet, the scientific interest of linguists in old languages aside, there is an important cultural heritage connected to many languages, which it would be sad to lose. The loss of speakers does not necessarily doom the literature of a language to oblivion: Â鶹ԼÅÄr can still be read by people who have made the effort to study ancient, Ionian Greek. But although my education included it, I doubt that I could get much beyond the first paragraph of the Iliad today.
If it is worth preserving old monuments and paintings, or subsidize theater and music, then it probably is also worth an effort to preserve old languages. A text in a dead language is much like a painting by an old master that is covered by a thick, dark varnish. Inflicting the use of such languages on others is something else. -
Message 49
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
Hi Mutatis,
I'm completely agree, it's the artificial imposition of frankly trivial, fashionable notions of what is authentic that I have a problem with.
ID, I'm now completely against reconstruction of archaeological sites and structures for a number of reasons. The decisions about what to do are based on current knowledge and so can be wildly wrong, the materials used have so often turned out to be completely inappropriate, the iron ties in the Acropolis being a good example, and then these reconstructions themselves can become protected in their own right. Evan's concrete pillars etc at Knossos are now covered by the same legal protection as the remains.
What is needed is some imaginative use of technology, for example I would love to see projection being used to recreate the use of colour in medieval church buildings and classical temples and statues. I'm sure you can come up with lots of other ideas. -
Message 50
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Wednesday, 5th October 2011
A Quango, ye say, Ferval - How about the 'Boord o' Ulster-Scotch' in Belfast?
Millions wasted on pretending that the Ulster dialect is a seperate language, just because the Republicans got the Stormont Govt to do road signs and job adverts in Irish Gaelic! It even backfired on themselves - they put up road-signs in 'Ulster-Scotch' in East Belfast, and the Loyalist locals tore them down, thinking they were in Irish. They 'translated' a job advert for a teacher of handicapped children as 'lukin efter scatty weans', and managed to offend even their own supporters.
An' the 'Heid-yin' o' this looney-bin gets 50K or more a year, and has dozens of eejits working for him!
Or are we the eejits, for allowing it?
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