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Cuddly animals...
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Saturday, 27th August 2011
...and I don't mean Minette...
TP's embittered, envy-inspired jibe about teddy bears has prompted me to post this question, about which I've been wondering. Why did bears become the most popular cuddly animals, rather than any other beast? They don't have their origin in Teddy Roosevelt's famous hunting trip, though that's where the term 'teddy bear' comes from - Steiff were making both cuddly bears and cuddly elephants some decades before that incident. So, why bears and not, eg, lions...?
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Message 2
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Saturday, 27th August 2011
Catigern
When "moved" to do so bears stand on two feet and use their forelimbs as arms.. I argue that the ability to hug was the most crucial result of the evolutionary leap that produced 'homo erectus'.. I hope to get some rugby commentary soon about England v Ireland and the respective abilities of their "eights" in creating the platform that makes all else possible.. As must have happened when primitive man discovered how to erect massive stones etc..
Cass -
Message 3
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 27th August 2011
Hi Catigern
Why is difficult; when is easier. I have searched a database of Victorian newspapers. The first use of 'Teddy bear' is 1908 which fits with the OED's date of 1906 for the first recorded use in the USA.
Searching for 'stuffed toy' produces a much earlier 'hit' in the shape of a 'stuffed toy of the fox and goose' involved in a theft from the Crystal Palace in 1867.
It is puzzling that such a dangerous creature as a bear was regarded as suitable as a children's toy or for that matter an inhabitant of Nutwood. Bears appear on Roman painted glass and Pictish carved stones of course.
There must have been a time in the 19th century when a switch from wood to stuffed plush occurred in the manufacture of toys. Could one imagine a conversation of this type occurring between two of your Oxford ancestors?
"Darling, I'm going out to buy our child a toy horse. Shall it be wooden or stuffed precious?'
'Oh! Get stuffed Catigern'.
Regards,
TP -
Message 4
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Saturday, 27th August 2011
So, why bears and not, eg, lions...?Ìý
It may have something to do with the clean shapes of a bear or elephant.
A simple round head, two small round ears, a big round body, four short stumpy arms/ legs and a couple of buttons for eyes will basically give you a bear. An elephant is not all that complicated either and both are much easier to cut, sew and stuff compared to other animals like lions etc, whose facial features and body parts are far more difficult to form into some resemblance of the real thing. -
Message 5
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Sunday, 28th August 2011
One theory I've heard is that Steiff was cashing in on the grand opening of the Berlin U-Bahn in 1902. The Berliner Bär (Berlin Bear) or Bärlein (Little Bear), of course, form part of the coat of arms of the city. It seems a bit of a tenuous hypothesis though particularly when one considers that Steiff was based in far off Giengen in southern Germany.
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Message 6
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Sunday, 28th August 2011
What do you do when a Polar Bear is chasing you?
It moves by scent and so one must throw off all one's clothes, starting with bits you don't really neeed, so the bear eats them and gives you more time to escape! Of course this means you have frozen to death before it eats you all up! Just a helpful interruption. Cuddly? Moi? Never!!!! Everyone hates me here....As you have taught me dear Catigern. -
Message 7
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 28th August 2011
Actually moving East from German bears- and ignoring Minette's "barefaced cheek"- THE Great Bear was the Russian Empire, and after the Alaska purchase and the Franco-Russian alliance- which brought Britain eventually into a Triple Entente with France and Russia, was there perhaps some political mileage in playing down the old evil Empire nature of Russia, that had overshadowed so much of Nineteenth Century international affairs?
Just a thought
Cass -
Message 8
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Monday, 29th August 2011
Hi TP,
I think you must be confusing me with Minette
, as she is the one with all the Oxonian ancestors (as she will, no doubt, remind us all once again at some point in the future), whereas I descend mostly from cattle thieves and colonial backwoodsmen.
You'd best watch out - she may not be flattered by your mix-up...
C.
More generally, I wonder if the trend for giving kids cuddly animals began in Germany, and bears came to dominate partly because the real thing was actually to be found there in the wild, and in North America, whereas elephants and lions weren't... -
Message 9
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 29th August 2011
Your ideas about the origin of toy bears sounds highly plausible. On other matters how about we all forgive and forget, and turn our laser sharp minds to further historical puzzles?
Regards
TP -
Message 10
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Monday, 29th August 2011
Quite agree, TP! Play nicely, children.
Joking apart, I wish those of you who like to indulge in a spot of knife-throwing would understand how trying it is for everyone else. It reminds me irresistably of one of those Newman and Baddiel 'History Today' sketches.
Surely it's possible to have a serious (or even light-hearted) debate on matters historical without resorting to personal attacks? Because someone doesn't agree with you it doesn't call their ancestry and personal habits into question. -
Message 11
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Monday, 29th August 2011
To get back the original question - why teddy bears are the most popular cuddly toy - I'd suggest it's because, as humans, we are programmed to care for things that remind us of a human baby. Teddies, with their disproportionately large heads, stubby limbs, chubby tummies and flat faces fit the bill perfectly as well as being eminently soft and cuddly. It's no coincidence that the original, pre teddy, bears with pointed muzzles and humps have not gained the same popularity amongst either parents or children. Who would want to go to sleep snuggling up to one of those.
Catigern, are you a teddy or a bruin? -
Message 12
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Monday, 29th August 2011
That sounds right, ferval. I think there comes a point when the momentum is so strong that teddy-bears have become the default toy or protagonist in children's picture books. Bears aren't necessarily all that more cuddly than kittens or puppies, and are much less familiar in reality. But they are omnipresent in kids' books.
I don't suppose anyone on this board is more thoughtful and less childish than TP. But the tone of the opening post did put me off writing here - as did not being able to find the information I might have had. I have a book on the history of teddy bears, but unfortunately finding specific books in my house at the moment is not easy. I had a search yesterday but to no avail.
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 13
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 29th August 2011
Hi Caro
Thank you for the kind words but I wasn't directly responsible for the o.p.
It is true that a very gentle reference of mine to fictional and actual Oxford arctophilists in another thread triggered Catigern's thoughts. He is, as you will appreciate, a learned ornament of the University of Oxford whereas I once studied at an equally distinguished seat of learning which he is pleased to call 'Fen Poly'. Although it is fun to bait each other it must be tiresome for other contributors. I think we might call a halt to it now, and perhaps also remarks about other posters who are not contributing to the thread in question.
Actually I should like to get him round to Robin Collingwood, an amazing philosopher of history, and Oxford professor. And he wasn't a bit cuddly...
Kind regards,
TP -
Message 14
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Monday, 29th August 2011
but I wasn't directly responsible for the o.p.Ìý
Sorry, TP, I didn't at all mean to suggest you were, though I see, reading it again, how that might be the impression left.
Here in NZ Oxford and Cambridge are hardly differentiated. Or any others. -
Message 15
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Tuesday, 30th August 2011
Caro, when I wrote my post I wasn't thinking of TP, whose behaviour is always exemplary, but of others whose exchanges are much more vitriolic.
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Message 16
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Tuesday, 30th August 2011
... a learned ornament of the University of Oxford... Ìý
Beautifully put, TP! -
Message 17
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Tuesday, 30th August 2011
'Fraid I don't intend to give up either Minette-baiting or Tab-bashing any time soon - you might as well ask me to abandon my Lancastrian prejudices about that Other County...
Catigern, are you a teddy or a bruin?Ìý
You have me there, Ferval - is that some coded 'Wegie question about religion?
...an equally distinguished seat of learning which he is pleased to call 'Fen Poly'. Ìý
I do remember making a point of saying that I regarded Bradford as at least the equal of Oxford when it came to archaeology, but that wasn't what I meant by 'Fen Poly'...
Here in NZ Oxford and Cambridge are hardly differentiated.Ìý
What a ghastly state of affairs! Like mixing up NZ proper and Kylie's homeland of 'West Island'... 
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Message 18
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Tuesday, 30th August 2011
Well, everyone does that, not something we can afford to get too bothered about. My husband taught in Britain for several months, but the kids never stopped talking about kangaroos to him.
One good university much the same as another, anyway. I don't suppose many of your kids would worry which of the two they were accepted into. -
Message 19
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 30th August 2011
A 'Wedgie' question, Catigern? Surely you don't believe I would employ pain and humiliation to provoke a response? That's not my style.
However, perhaps I should have asked; are you a teddy or a grizzly? I suspect you might be a slightly moth eaten but affectionately regarded old teddy pretending to be an awfully nasty grizzly. -
Message 20
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 30th August 2011
Caro
Actually Stephen Fry wrote most intelligently about the difference between Oxford and Cambridge in his latest volume of autobiography..
He felt himself a particulat affiinity to Cambridge literary heroes whom he characterised as being "iconocalastic"- likely to tear the world down or join in efforts to do so [we had programme on the Cambridge Spies of the Cold War era a couple of days ago]
Oxford on the other hand produces many more Prime Ministers, people who try to pursue their dreams of progress from within the "establishment".
In his own field of humurous entertainment when growing up Fry may have seen these two strands woven together in Peter Cook and Dudley Moore, the one essentially iconaclastic and even at times anarchistic, and the other really just Cuddly Duddly.
Catigern may have a different take on it... Lancastrians often do.
Cass -
Message 21
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Wednesday, 31st August 2011
However, perhaps I should have asked; are you a teddy or a grizzly?Ìý
Oh, I see! Actually, I'm a tiger in a can...(Ca-tiger-n... geddit?)
I suspect you might be a slightly moth eaten but affectionately regarded old teddy pretending to be an awfully nasty grizzly.Ìý
I am dedd fearce an u'd better beleve it or I will savvij u!
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Message 22
Posted by Poldertijger (U11154078) on Wednesday, 31st August 2011
Hello Catigern and Twinprobe.
TP, you write:
He is, as you will appreciate, a learned ornament of the University of Oxford whereas I once studied at an equally distinguished seat of learning which he is pleased to call 'Fen Poly'. Ìý
Hmm, this bodes well for British education; according to the maps I've seen Cambridge is well situated outside the fens!
Regards,
Poldertijger -
Message 23
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Hello Poldertijger,
You and your countrymen may have more refined ideas about what counts as a swampy or waterlogged place than we do over here... -
Message 24
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Cass,
Potential for a different take duly set out in a new thread on iconic Tabs...
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Message 25
Posted by Poldertijger (U11154078) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Hello Poldertijger,
You and your countrymen may have more refined ideas about what counts as a swampy or waterlogged place than we do over here...Ìý
Hello Catigern,
I see, Cambridge being the most important town in the vicinity of the Fens is considered to be a part of the Fens, though technically its altitude is too high for Cambridge to be a part of the Fens.
Regards,
Poldertijger -
Message 26
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Polder
Largely on the basis of Charles Kingsley's novel "Herewarde the Wake", which seems to be based upon research he carried out when he was Professor of Modern History at Cambridge, I think that the question of the elevation of Cambridge may not have been as crucial as the question of access.. England's wetlands are not as uniformly flat as the Dutch polders and islands like the Isle of Ely and the island of Athelny have had their historical role. Perhaps Cambridge was also on an island- at least sometimes. I certainly remember times in my Oxford childhood when you could not misunderstand what the term "flood plain" means.
Cass -
Message 27
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
I don't understand all this Oxford/Cambridge rivalry. Surely (supposedly) intelligent and educated people have better things to do with their time than bun fights?
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Message 28
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
ID
Rivalry tends to be one of the ways that people are motivated to do the very best they can.
Having just mentioned G.M. Trevelyans c1913 book "Recreations of an Historian" he includes a piece on the great value of walking, and was a great walker himself over great historical sites- resorting to a bicycle, however, when doing research in Italy.
But he mentions that this really starts at university. Himself a Cambridge man he insisted that all serious students of either university should ,at least once , walk all the way to Marble Arch in London, and then all the way to "the other place". Perahps that could take two days . but the real test was to walk directly from one university to the other in one day.. That really sorted out the "men from the boys".
But actually what was really nasty in Oxford (I can not say for Cambridge) was the terrible fights that would break out regularly between "Townies" and "Gownies" in which sometimes quite serious injuries resulted. Oxford of course had no women students, and I am not sure just when all those secretarial colleges and the like deliberately created to exploit the need for undergraduates to have partners for Oxford balls- and potentially for life.
When my old school was founded in the 1880's in accordance with the reform suggestions of the Royal Commissions the previous decade (Possibly the Newcastle Commission? There were three) it was created (I later discovered) especially in order to bridge the gap between Town and Gown. But not for children of the working class.
And I get the strong impression that our most famous old boy. Lawrence of Arabia, felt uncomfortable as an old Townie turned Gownie living in Oxford where he parents were still "living in sin" with other illegitimate children.. Not really the kind of thing that "suits".
Correction I keep forgetting that Ronnie Barker became the most famous old boy -- I wonder whether he still is.
Cass -
Message 29
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Hello Catigern and Twinprobe.
TP, you write:
He is, as you will appreciate, a learned ornament of the University of Oxford whereas I once studied at an equally distinguished seat of learning which he is pleased to call 'Fen Poly'. Ìý
Hmm, this bodes well for British education; according to the maps I've seen Cambridge is well situated outside the fens!
Regards,
PoldertijgerÌý Hi Poldertijger
Naturally you will not hold me responsible for the jibes of other posters but your own post does raise the interesting point as to where the Fens are exactly, or were since the land is drained.
Ely, with its magnificent cathedral, is definitely within the Fens whereas Cambridge and Peterborough do lie just outside some Fenland maps, although I have always thought of them as Fen cities myself.
The old Roman road (Ermine Street) from London to Lincoln deviates to the west to avoid the marshy ground. It ran from Royston to Huntingdon leaving Cambridge to the east, very decidedly within the Fen area. The wind in February comes straight from the Urals apparently.
Regards
TP -
Message 30
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Hi id,
' Surely (supposedly) intelligent and educated people have better things to do with their time than bun fights?'
Well you may have answered your own question, although it is amazing that the annual Boat Race still attracts TV time and a certain amount of public interest. Since neither Oxford or Cambridge can rival the very best U.S. universities in academic fame perhaps the time for even friendly rivalry is over. It any case both institutions have a great deal of which they can be proud.
Remember the Festival of Nine Lessons & Carols, DNA, Cromwell, Newton or the winning of more Nobel prizes than any other UK university. Then consider the Bullingdon Club, that girl from Harry Potter, a comma and loose trousers. You can see there is really not much in it.
Regards
TP -
Message 31
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Ha, thanks TP, but I really think you have to be an insider to fully "get it".
Can anyone explain what Fen Poly means? Well I definitely know what and where the Fens are but the Poly bit is confusing.
Poly as in the Greek for much, very, excessive or abnormal?
Poly as in Polytechnic? Another Greek word too.
Poly as in a parrot? But that would have two lls I suppose.
Poly as in polyester? -
Message 32
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Hi id
When Catigern wishes to be faintly demeaning of my alma mater he refers to the University of Cambridge as Fen Polytechnic or Fen Poly. The explanation being that a Polytechnic was once a B list university and Cambridge is, more or less, in the Fens. Frankly I don't know whether this is a common usage, or one of Catigern's 'happy' inventions. In return I could call Oxford the Thames Valley Comprehensive, but if other posters don't even recognise the insults that is an excellent reason for stopping them.
Oh yes he calls Cambridge graduates 'tabs' which must derive from Cantabrigiensis. I've not heard this elsewhere and I can't think of an equivalent term I might use in retaliation.
TP -
Message 33
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
I don't understand all this Oxford/Cambridge rivalry. Surely (supposedly) intelligent and educated people have better things to do with their time than bun fights?Ìý
Yes, ID, but how does that point relate to Tabs...?
Remember the Festival of Nine Lessons & CarolsÌý
No thanks...
DNAÌý
For the discovery of which, Ros Franklin, of King's College, London, never got credit, possibly because of the underhand way Wilkins was passing her data to Watson and Crick...
CromwellÌý
A great self-publicist whose military career would have ended at Marston Moor had the Scots, of all people, not saved the troops he was leading to disaster, and who, as I've observed elsewhere, made himself Chancellor of Oxford when he could...
...and whom Henry V, a good Oxford man, could easily have beaten in a fight!
NewtonÌý
One of the nastiest individuals in history, when it came to his dealings with other human beings!
winning of more Nobel prizes than any other UK university.Ìý
Reassuring for the insecure, I'm sure...
Then consider the Bullingdon ClubÌý
Oxford gave us Boris Johnson, whom I much admire, whereas Cambridge gave us Nick Griffin...
that girl from Harry PotterÌý
...isn't even at Oxford, yet (though she is rather luscious, as is Kate Williams DPhil...
)
Frankly I don't know whether this is a common usage, or one of Catigern's 'happy' inventions.Ìý
It's rather well known - must be a while since TP was in 'Cambridge - Â鶹ԼÅÄ of Anglia Ruskin University' (as the signs at the station declare it...)
In return I could call Oxford the Thames Valley Comprehensive,Ìý
'Could do'? 'Have done', shurely...
Oh yes he calls Cambridge graduates 'tabs' which must derive from Cantabrigiensis. I've not heard this elsewhereÌý
'Tabs' is very well known, see, eg, the Cambridge student newspaper 'The Tab'...
and I can't think of an equivalent term I might use in retaliation.Ìý
What do Tabs call Oxonians..?
'Sir' or 'Ma'am' if they're addressed first - otherwise, they don't!
Actually, I've read that some say 'Fordies', but I've never actually heard it. -
Message 34
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Catigern
I'm going to ignore all that except to say that I wholly agree with you about Rosalind Franklin. A very brave woman and a very sad story.
TP -
Message 35
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
I don't want to intrude into a private spat but the mention of Rosalind Franklin reminded me of the equally unfair treatment of Jocelyn Bell Burnell, also at Cambridge, but at least that story has had a happier ending with the recognition she deserves and honours heaped upon her.
We've strayed a long way from teddies! -
Message 36
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Hi ferval
Ow! What's the weather like up there on the moral high ground?
There are some superficial similarities I agree but Prof Burnell, a wholly admirable woman, has said on many occasions that she has no regrets arising from her discovery of quasars. Perhaps if she takes this generous attitude herself we have to accept it.
TP -
Message 37
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Thursday, 1st September 2011
Isn't she one of the most impressive all round human beings, one of those rare people who can combine dazzling intellect with superb communication skills and radiant humanity.
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Message 38
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Friday, 2nd September 2011
For the benefit of those abroad, Britain also has univerisities where academics teach and research rather than just devize insults for those they feel threatened by.
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Message 39
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Friday, 2nd September 2011
Good to hear that, cloudyj, though, as I frequently notice research done at Sheffield University, I had presumed that really. Nevertheless kids here get very excited (as do we all) if they get into Oxford. I don't hear of them going to Cambridge so often.
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Message 40
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Friday, 2nd September 2011
Actually Caro
Your comment about NZ and Oxford interests me- because long experience of watching the varsity rugby match and less the Boat race has given me the impression that there is some regional divide in the outreach of the two..
Of course in the old days many "top schools" had reserved places in one or other based upon benevolent founders, and perhaps the most ambitious scheme of that kind is the Rhodes Scholarships set up by Cecil Rhodes in his will with the specific aim of taking some of "the best" from throughout the British Empire and Commonwealth plus the USA and Germany to study in Oxford. He saw it as the best way to pursue his ideal of a new Pax Romanum in the World, having spent much of his life working on the basis that Britain and its Empire could accomplish that alone.
But apart from these "old school ties" which have left enduring traditions I have gained the impression of a Welsh preference for Cambridge.. and possibly the Irish as well [Minette of course as she has told us before had a mixed upbringing with much of the time spent in England]..
And South Africans seem to go a great deal for Oxford- perhaps the legacy of Cecil Rhodes. But I remember Nick Mallett as a brilliant Number 8 for Oxford, and some time ago I heard that he had taken the SA squad as the coach to visit his old Uni.. Our daughter who was "up" at that time recalled having seen an mass of huge smartly -green-dressed young men touring her college. Two days later they turned up at Twickenham and it was obvious that the "Boks" were just overawed by so much history. That England victory was a key turning point in the North v South psychology of the game. The Northern Hemisphere was making its comback.
But do any NZ's go to the Scottish Universities?
Cass -
Message 41
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Friday, 2nd September 2011
I'm away for a week in a few minutes, Cass, so a few quick repsonse to your last question. New Zealanders go to NZ universities for their undergrad years, and most for postgrad ones too. But some very bright ones get to Oxford, and a few head for America, perhaps. But none of the kids I have known personally have gone to university (always have to write the whole word out, because my 'varsity' is old-fashioned, and I find 'uni' difficult and too modern for me) outside NZ. It's not usual.
And I've never heard of anyone going to a Scottish one. (It's only down south that there is a big number of people descended from the Scots - in the rest of NZ it is more English. I am reading a book on these stats just now, and Scotland was more represented here than in Britain percentage-wise, and Welsh less, but still more than 50% of British immigrants were English.)
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 42
Posted by glen berro (U8860283) on Saturday, 3rd September 2011
Surely (supposedly) intelligent and educated people have better things to do with their time than bun fights?Ìý
Well, that's the theory, ID, but you may have noticed they continue their bun fights when they become cabinet ministers with the usual disregard for the peasants.
glen -
Message 43
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Sunday, 4th September 2011
Ha, good point Glen!
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