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Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Sunday, 7th August 2011
'Richard III' is well established as rhyming slang for 'tvrd', but for how long and why? Is it simply because of the rhyme (in which case, why not Henry III, Edward III or George III?) or do we use the hunchbacked usurper's supposed title as slang for a piece of excrement because contemporary and subsequent generations regard him as a particularly foul and loathsome individual?
I can think of a couple of other examples of royals being used as slang...
A 'henry' is slang for a measure of cannabis weighing 1/8th of an ounce, after 'Henry the Eighth'.
William IV was the original 'Silly Billy'.
Are there any others? We should be wary of mere coincidence when considering this question: both Charles I and Charles II were idiots, but I don't think 'a charlie' for 'an idiot' derives from this.
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Flagrantly provocative.
My Cockney Dad used to give me an Oxford as pocket money (I assume 5 shillings = dollar = Oxford scholar).
It is sometimes difficult to tell true rhyming slang from 'Mockney' but I have heard it said that 'Oxford punt' has replaced 'Berkeley hunt' in a situation that the Â鶹ԼÅÄ's strict policy on profanity prevents me from elaborating.
TP
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Rhyming slang is usually used by people who feel they are engaged in something either illegal or which they wish to keep in confidence. It is supposed to have originated amongst the coster-mongers in the London street markets as they sort to sell-off stolen property and other contrabrand.
As TP points out the manifestation of Mockney is a modern irritant. I think this use of the word `richard' is largely due to The Two Ronnies.
I often annoy my colleagues by wandering off to the `fish-tank' without telling them, but then you are not supposed to for security reasons.
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, in reply to message 2.
Posted by Hugh Mosby-Joaquin (U14258131) on Sunday, 7th August 2011
"My Cockney Dad used to give me an Oxford as pocket money (I assume 5 shillings = dollar = Oxford scholar)."
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..or could he have been giving you an "Oxford gown"?
That is a Crown, or 5/-
Regarding 'Oxford punt' as a potential pseudonym for the 'Berk' expression, I suspect contrived mockney is at work here. I doubt if it will catch on. ' Berk' is far too ingrained in the psyche of those not born within earshot of Bow bells...
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Hi Hugh
I like 'Oxford gown' very much, but in my father's case it was definitely 'dollar'. Until decimalisation 2/6 was always 'half a dollar'. I can't say why any more than I can understand why his attempts to express an possible improvement of the weather on a dark day was always vocalised as "it looks brighter over Will's Mum's".
TP
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Which is a follow-on from "It's very black over Bill's mother's"
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TP - In some circles, 2/6 was "two and a kick" rather than "half a dollar".
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Or even 'two and a tanner'. But why tanner for 6d?
I think George Orwell records that a silver 3d was a 'joey' and a shilling was a 'bob' (which I do remember) or a 'hog' (which I don't).
Can anyone explain why?
TP
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Hello Catigern and all,
One of the great mysteries of life for me has been why the series about the London flying squad had been called the Sweeney.
Lately I’ve been informed that Flying Squad rhymes with Sweeney Todd, so I gather that the cockneys would find it hilarious to indicate the flying squad with the word Sweeney, leaving outsiders in bewilderment.
I realize now that I’m old enough to understand the joke that Dennis Waterman is part of the detective team of “New Tricks.â€
Regards from a slightly saddened,
Poldertijger
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Why are you sad, Polder? You name intrigues me because we used to have 'Fen Tigers' here (in East Anglia)
Words like 'bob', 'tanner' and 'joey' were universal amongst working people, and not confined to rhyming slang.
Sweeney Todd was a notorious serial killer, 'the Demon Barber of Fleet Street'. He dispatched his victims in his barber's chair, then tilted a hinged platform on which the chair stood and tipped them into the cellar, where his female accomplice made them into pies (well, bits of them, anyway)
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, in reply to message 10.
Posted by Pugwash Trouserpress (U1865008) on Tuesday, 9th August 2011
Two that have always baffled me are 'Kettle' for a wristwatch and 'Drum' for a house or home.
Someone suggested that 'Kettle' may be from 'Kettle on the Hob'=Fob but I'm not convinced.
Any other ideas?
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, in reply to message 11.
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 9th August 2011
Both kettle and drum may not have originated as rhyming slang at all, though subsequent rhymes might well have been assumed on their behalf.
Eric Honeywood Partridge, the famous slang etymologist, reckoned "drum" began as Romany gypsies' jargon - their use of the word "drom" originally meant "road" (from the Greek "dromos" / Latin "dromus") and the term appears to have become adopted by London-based criminals around the same time as other Romany terms, a development which coincided with an increasing number of gypsies settling in the city and being absorbed into the impoverished classes.
Kettle as a word for watch might well be "kettle and hob" (fob), however Partridge could find no substantiation for this and suggested it was equally feasible to presume that being suspended from a chain could have been sufficient reason to cross-identify the items. There is written evidence of "kettle banger" (pocket watch thief) in use from at least the 1870s but this does not throw any light on the term's origin.
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, in reply to message 12.
Posted by Hugh Mosby-Joaquin (U14258131) on Tuesday, 9th August 2011
"(Kettle..as pseudonym for pocketwatch).... it was equally feasible to presume that being suspended from a chain could have been sufficient reason to cross-identify the items."
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That certainly seems to fit within the parameters of 19th century working-class ironic and self-deprecating humour.
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Presumably you could date the slang words. When did 'drum' become 'gaff' for example in the meaning of house. Is it true that gaff was originally Irish in origin?
Regards
TP
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, in reply to message 14.
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Tuesday, 9th August 2011
Not going in the direction you wanted? Poor soul.
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Shorter Oxford says 1770 - 99 for drum meaning house (and mentions Romany, cf Romanian 'drum'.
I presume monkey for 500 pounds is rhyming slang, but is pony for 25? I don't know if these are widespread usages in Britain or not, never used here.
Caro.
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, in reply to message 10.
Posted by Poldertijger (U11154078) on Thursday, 11th August 2011
Re: message 10.
Hello Raundsgirl,
Thank you for informing me about Sweeney Todd. I can’t help feeling that his method looked a lot like the method of one of the murderers of “Waking the Dead.â€
Groups of Dutch like football supporters when abroad are affectionally called Polder Lions by their countrymen in a pun to the Dutch coat of arms that shows a lion. I have called myself Poldertijger in reference to my father’s country of origin, i.e. the Dutch Indies, although I'm well living in the Netherlands.
Regards,
Poldertijger
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TP
`gafol' is Old English for rent and `gabhaltas' is Gaelic for a leasehold dwelling so take your pick.
My Gaelic speaking great-grandmother, who spent her adult life in Stepney, used to revert to her mother-tongue when agitated. She acquired a reputation as a witch because people thought she was casting a spell. She also existed in solidarity with her Yiddish speaking neighbours as they were all outsiders with English as their second language.
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TP
A half-crown has half a dollar because up until post-war devaluation the US dollar was worth just five shillings. After that it became seven shilling and fourpence on average which is not a sum to conjure with.
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Hi stanilic
Perfect explanation. Many thanks.
TP
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Tanner - Aat Anna - Eight Annas = half a rupee.
Yes, "pony" is still in use for £25 - mostly in horse racing, and a "string of ponies" is/was £250.
A Galleywood Eagle - 50p piece, so called because every passenger from Galleywood would tender one for a 7p fare in hopes that the bus driver hadn't got enough change. Local & temporary usage from Chelmsford. Othewise known as a spanner - the shape was supposedly chosen so that a wrench could be used to get the coin out of a Scotsman's hand.
Maggie - pound coin, supposedly beacuse it is hard, brassy, and thinks it is a sovereign. Fallen out of use - name and name donor both.
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, in reply to message 15.
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
The 50p pieces was known as the Wilson Washer as it was introduced before decimalisation under the Wilson government of the last Sixties.
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