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King Arthur: How much is sheer myth?
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Wednesday, 8th June 2011
We know that King Arthur is a fantasy figure based upon truth. But how much truth?
Arthur was already a semi-mythical hero of Welsh literature as early as the 9thC, as in Y Trioedd, Preiddeu Annwn and indirectly in Y Goddodin (a poem written between 800 and 100 about the Battle of Catterick between the Britons and the Angles fought c.600). Arthur also featured in early romances that would later become a medieval story, as in Culhwch a Olwen.
Historia Brittonum, a historical miscellany written c.830 and once incorrectly attributed to Welsh monk Nennius, mentions Arthur.
Annals Cambriae, written in Latin between 954 and 977, directly mention Arthur under two dates in the 6thC, in 516 and 537.
Arthur has been a figure of literature since the 12thC, in great novels by Geoffrey of Monmouth, later bishop of St.Asaph. He was a canon of an Augustinian house in Oxford when he wrote his Historia Regum Britanniae, finishing it in 1136.
However, Arthur was the subject of only c.20% of the whole work, the story elements of which were added and/or expanded by following writers.
Wace in 1155 wrote the Roman de Brut which added the Round Table.
Christien de Troyes, a French poet who is known as the author of five Arthurian romances: (Erec; Cligès; Lancelot, ou Le Chevalier à la charrette; Yvain, ou Le Chevalier au lion; and Perceval, ou Le Conte du Graal) in the 1160’s to 1180’s. The non-Arthurian tale Guillaume d’Angleterre, based on the legend of St. Eustace, may also have been written by Chrétien, adding Llancelot and the castle of Camelot.
Robert de Boron was a French poet of the late 12th and early 13th centuries who is most notable as the author of the poems Joseph d'Arimathe and Merlin. In the 1190’s added the quest for the Holy Grail.
Lazamon, English poet and priest, composed a poem of a version of Arthur’s story in English in the early 1200’s.
Sir Thomas Malory. He wrote Le Morte D’Arthur in 1470 (printed by Caxton in 1485), the legend version of Arthur that we know today
William of Malmesbury. Although he added nothing new in the early 1120’s, William was scathing about [then] current literary uses of Arthur. He wrote earlier than Geoffrey of Monmouth which shows that the latter was joining part of a wider Arthurian trend.
Is Arthur an elevated bystander in some Celtic yarns and/or desperate minds? -
Message 2
Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Wednesday, 8th June 2011
Hi Hereword
You might be interested in this thread on the Ancient and Archeology Board under Nennius Battles of Arthur.......
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 3
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Wednesday, 8th June 2011
you would think that arthur is real as so many respected historians have written about him -maybe many have placed him too late - esp as a medieval knight
my best vision is as bernard cornwell describes him - as a local warlord - yes its fiction - but believable fiction based on fact
what i scream about is that no-one as yet can make a believable film about him - they are all pap
surely this is a fantastic opportunity for a documentary type film - they all end up like kellys heroes
aaaggghhh
st -
Message 4
Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Thursday, 9th June 2011
Hi Hereword,
We have to be rather careful about what our early sources are telling us for a number of reasons. Firstly, there may have been more than one person called Arthur.
Secondly, one can put up a plausible argument for saying that some of the battles attributed to Arthur are attested elsewhere and may have nothing to do with anyone of that name. You'll see from TA's link that I feel that Celidon Wood falls into this category.
Thirdly, Arthur is mentioned far less than many other figures. Even in Y Goddodin, Arthur gets just the one mention. The poem is stuff full of the deeds of heroes of old and the Great Man really looks like a bit of Any Other Business rather than Top Hero. I think that many people who cite this reference have never read the whole poem and therefore do not put that reference in context - even if it was original and not a later gloss.
Fourthly, Arthur is surprisingly absent in the earleist extant Welsh poems, although in all fairness they tend to be concerned with events outside traditional Badon country.
All that said, the myth has persisted. This makes me think there was indeed an Arthur, but that he was nothing like what the myth makers have made him. Most folk are happy to take him back to being a 6th warlord, but tend to like to credit him with uniting the country in a brave nationalist struggle against the baby-eating Saxons. I think even that goes too far. I'd argue that he was the victor of Badon, a southern battle which either was sufficiently important to be remembered, or which by luck just happened to be remembered. His name (rather than his deeds) got picked up by the myth makers and the snowball started rolling.
Regards,
A R -
Message 5
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Thursday, 9th June 2011
Interesting reply, ArweRheged, thanks.
Yes, as with Jesus and other figures from before our era, layer upon layer of extra myth has been applied onto what was (Jesus) and what may have been (King Arthur) a very real person.
I will look at that link, TA. -
Message 6
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 9th June 2011
AR
Would you be interested in a 'was Badon actually a British victory' thread on Ancient & Archaeology?
For the purposes of debate I would take the position that if the battle occurred at all it could have been a defeat for the British (somewhat along the lines that Nick Higham argues). You would take the opposite point of view.
As for the other battles, were you a poster here when a proud defender of the 'Welsh Arthur', the much missed Genwrian, argued that the Celidon Wood was in Wales? TA will remember him I'm sure.
Kind regards,
TA -
Message 7
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 9th June 2011
There is a new fantasy drama of 'Camelot' on C4 starting on Saturday 11 June, 9pm. [By the team who did the Tudors.]
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Message 8
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Friday, 10th June 2011
Oh dear! There will always be some sort of "drama" about King Arthur or Arturo dux bellorum. Not only Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote about him but other "scribes" as far away as Spain and France. He appears to have been a warlord who simply faught, or tried to against the Saxon hoards in the c7th.
I don't live far away from Caerleon where the Romans had their amphitheatre and endless barracks, seems a sensible place for a war lord to operate from AND there are many old ruins and houses there with name plates saying, "Arthur's House". Also near to the Somerset Levels and Glastonbury.
Apart from that there is Caermarthen, the Place of Merlin, which has been here for thousands of years. Not many places can boast their own Wizard. Tintagel owns up to being a Victorian construct. Having climbed to the very top I can see why but the archaelogy is all wrong. To think boring old south Wales is the place where the Arthurian legends/backed up by Geoffrey of Monmouth began and others who say the same, there really are.to think of it most of the names associated with him are Welsh too, Uther Pen Dragon (pen means the head of, in Welsh) Morgan too, this is where I stop? Cheers Minette.
What really annoys me is the sword in the stone part. It's all in the translation as usual. Saxum/ Saxi means stone or rock in Latin. Isn't it more likey that some ancient war lord called Arturo pulled his sword from the body of a Saxon not Saxum/ stone? But as usual people prefer fairy stories and not the truth. And so a real man, who may well have been friendly with an intelligent wise man called Merlin becomes the stuff of Disney cartoons.
( Incidentally, just found out that 50% of the Founding Fathers of America who signed the Declaration of Independence were Welsh or of Welsh descent; Yale, Princeton and Browns Universities were set up by Welsh founders and 20% of the people who sailed in the Mayflower were Welsh as was the Captain! Wonders will never cease!)
This was mixed up during posting! My mouse jumps. Hope it makes sense.I'll post anyway... -
Message 9
Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Saturday, 11th June 2011
Hi TP
I miss Gwenrian - he has some wonderful ideas and brilliant interpretations of the ancient languages and the Welsh Annals and totally different locations based on what he believes are misinterpretaions by the establishment.
He certainly has everything taped in Wales for the Nennius batttles up to Badon.
His links to other persons of the time are equally impressive...........
It really is a difficult subject but still entertains us all to this day.......
Best Wishes TA -
Message 10
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Sunday, 12th June 2011
I struggled through the first 25mins of lastnight's Camelot, and switched over!
It was useless: bad production, limp acting and boring scenes. And that's leaving out the historical waywardness instead of following Gildas & Nennius etc.
At least that superior series, Spartacus: Blood and sand, although also with faults, is charismatic, has great production, action and focuses in-depth into the characters.
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