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Names to tribute heroes
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
On the war board Cass happened to mention Winston Churchill given as forenames to a baby in 1939. I have access to birth and death notices from early days here and it seems to me that perhaps the most popular of this type of tribute name (aside from family and friends – my father and his three brothers were all given the names, first and surname, of friends of their parents) was Baden Powell which crops up quite regularly. I have seen Florence Nightingale too and Kitchener perhaps more often as a second name. It seems to be something that doesn’t happen in western white society to any degree now, perhaps the result of a more cynical era, perhaps for some other reason, though the first names of celebrities and television characters do become popular. I think that has more to do with the sounds of names and their novelty rather than direct hero-worship.
What other heroes have become popular names like that? I think generally in the later 20th century at least people have been wary of too much connection with particular people – Winston is not a particularly popular name for people in their 60s to 80s, and here in New Zealand there was no upsurge of Edmunds after Mount Everest was climbed for the first time. I don’t think I know personally a single Edmund.
It seems to me this was a 19thC or early 20thC phenomenom more than any other time.
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 2
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
It seems to me this was a 19thC or early 20thC phenomenom more than any other time. Ìý
I think the heros have just changed. Tribute names to sports stars, actors and singers seem quite common. -
Message 3
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
That includes (Here in Liverpool) being named after the whole of the winning team a few years back. The names of certain Australian soap stars/singers became the thing. These days Pop stars etc name their children after the place the child was conceived. Glad that didn't catch on, other wise you would have some child called "Behind the bike sheds."
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Message 4
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
This reminds me of an utterly tragic family I had professional contact with years ago. The two children I dealt with were saddled with the names of a pair of MGM musical stars from the 30's. The really tragic part was that the parents were brother and sister and the children were, unsurprisingly, profoundly damaged.
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Message 5
Posted by dmatt47 (U13073434) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
In the 19th century names like Nelson and Victoria would have been popular and there is Hercules.
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Message 6
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
I reckon that tribute names have always been common; royal names have always been popular amongst loyalists (pity poor Caroline Frederick Scott, son of a loyal family apparently fond of George II's queen...).
As for heroes names, has every 'Alexander' since the Macedonian been named for a hero...?
One of my pet hates is modern use of 'Paris' as a girl's name - I reckon people should only call a daughter 'Paris' if they already have an older daughter called 'Hector'...
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Message 7
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
Hercules or Iraklis, just like many other names, is still in use and has been in use almost continually since ancient times in Greece. Anyone in the UK using the name could very well be of an immigrant family.
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Message 8
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
One of my pet hates is modern use of 'Paris' as a girl's name - I reckon people should only call a daughter 'Paris' if they already have an older daughter called 'Hector'...Ìý
Agreed! Paris was and still is a male name, never female. I think it has become popular because of that Hilton person. -
Message 9
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
Well I was named, (As was my father) after two Kings, both German. Frederick and George. Then my mother complained when we refused to name our son the same. Althoug he was named for a king and a saint. Stephen and David.
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Message 10
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
The dear old gentleman who used to me our neighbour had the middle name 'Verdun', which pretty well pins down his date of birth.
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Message 11
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
Another 'battle' name that seems to have disappeared is Alma. I knew two, not including Miss Cogan.
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Message 12
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
Naming children after heroes has been quite popular in the US over the years. FD Roosevelt, JF Kennedy, G Washington, General Jackson and A Lincoln, just to name a few, seem to continue to have many namesakes.
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Message 13
Posted by Daniel-K (U2684833) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
On Radio 4's In Our Time the other week it was pointed out that there is an irony in that one of the leaders of the US's post-Civil War campaigns against the Native Americans of the Great Plains, General Sherman, was called William Tecumseh Sherman, the middle name coming from a chief of the Shawnee who had sided with the British in the War of 1812.
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Message 14
Posted by Daniel-K (U2684833) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
What other heroes have become popular names like that? I think generally in the later 20th century at least people have been wary of too much connection with particular people – Winston is not a particularly popular name for people in their 60s to 80s, and here in New Zealand there was no upsurge of Edmunds after Mount Everest was climbed for the first time. I don’t think I know personally a single Edmund.
Ìý
In the UK today Winston is probably more usually seen as a West Indian name. I presume the popularity in that community is due to respect for the wartime leader but I do not know for sure. -
Message 15
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
Both Denis Healey (in 1917) and John Lennon (in 1940) were given the middle name of Winston in honour of The Greatest Englishman although Lennon later renounced his middle name in favour of "Ono" for obvious reasons.
The Churchill family rather unimaginatively have alternated the names Winston and Randolph since the 7th Duke of Marlborough, Sir Winston's grandfather, who was given the middle name of Winston in 1822 (as well as the first name of John) to commemorate Sir Winston Churchill, a C17 M.P. and father of the 1st Duke, the victor of Blenheim.
This is true for the recently-deceased Winston Churchill's eldest son, Randolph, born in the year of his great-grandfather's death, who also bears his great-grandfather's other forename of Leonard, after his maternal grandfather. The late Mr Churchill's family have also reverted to the practice of using Spencer-Churchill as a hyphenated surname, as it originally was, rather than using Spencer as an additional forename as in the PM's case. -
Message 16
Posted by Daniel-K (U2684833) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
The Hoggs (the Viscounts Hailsham) have similarly alternated between two forenames, so far for 5 generations - Quintin, Douglas, Quintin, Douglas, Quintin.
But the lack of imagination of the Hoggs and Churchills pales next to the Mocenigos of Venice who furnished that city with several Doges. Doge Alvise Mocenigo II (so called because he was the second Alvise Mocenigo to be Doge) was the youngest of nine brothers, all of whom were given the Christian name of Alvise (and thus before his elevation was identified as Alvise IX). One of his nephew, also called Alvise, (the son of the earlier Doge's fourth eldest brother, Alvise IV), became Doge in his turn and thus Doge Alvise Mocenigo III, though previously he had (also) been Alvise IV as he was the fourth of six brothers, every one of whom was called Alvise. -
Message 17
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
In those cases is Alvise actually used as a first name, or more as some sort of patronymic? They can't all have been referred to as Alvise. In ordinary families this sort of thing has been confusing - we checked graveyards in Scotland for my grandmother's family and they were all John, son of Andrew, son of Andrew, son of John. I think Americans still use considerably repeated names like Franklin Delaney Roosevelt III.
I would differentiate between names actively used as a tribute to someone, and names which simply come from a celebrity. Not many kids are called Paris Hilton; they are just called Paris. (And when did you last actually come across a man called Paris, those of you objecting to this use for girls?) In our birth notices last year was a boy called MacKinnon, and in the notice it specifically said the name was given in honour of a 'great Fiordland explorer'. But I do think that is fairly unusual today. There were also quite a number of children after the ship they came to NZ in, in earlier days (often because they were born on it).
Years ago I asked people in the newspapers why they named their kids as they did, and while one or two specially mentioned calling children after famous people, much more often it was, "We heard the name on Marilyn Monroe and we liked it." One woman said they admired royalty and named their children after members of the royal family - but they weren't famous ones, I think they were Marcus and Oliver.
We had one of those name-mocking stories in the paper the other day, where a child was called 'Like'. The mother wanted her children to have completely unique names; I had sympathy with this, as I sometimes think it is a shame we don't all have unique names. Her older children had unusual names and hadn't minded them. Pacific Island people are more likely to give their children names that sound a little odd to western ears, and they will use tribute names happily, or names like Bonnie and Flower and Serene.
Cheers, Caro. (My father once told me I was named when he saw a newspaper photo of a bride in a wedding and liked the look of her. Not sure if that would have been my mother's impression.) -
Message 18
Posted by Daniel-K (U2684833) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
In those cases is Alvise actually used as a first name, or more as some sort of patronymic? They can't all have been referred to as Alvise.
Ìý
I know no more than what I have already said. The detail of the names is mentioned in a rather exasperated footnote in John Julius Norwich's history of Venice.
However, in British history we have the Pastons, a family whose letters from the fifteenth century have survived. In one generation there were two brothers both named John. In the letters the family simply refer to 'John' whichever one they are writing of. Presumably the context was enough to understand which John was meant.
One woman said they admired royalty and named their children after members of the royal family - but they weren't famous ones, I think they were Marcus and Oliver.
Ìý
Are you sure she didn't say she hated royalty and named her children after Oliver Cromwell and Marcus Junius Brutus? -
Message 19
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Tuesday, 24th May 2011
Ha, Daniel! I struggled a bit to find it, but now see that Katharine Worsley's (the Duchess of Kent) brother is called Oliver and I suspect another one is Marcus. (She is descended from Oliver Cromwell, though!) This woman mentioned another child, but I have forgotten the name (I received over 100 letters in reply to this query and it was in the mid-1970s, so I think I've done quite well to remember that much).
It doesn't relate to the Paston letters or the Alvise situation, but I read recently (may have mentioned it here before) that because of English recorders people in Scotland who gave their children variants of common names ended up on the records with them having the same name. They quote a family of Iain, Ewan, Eoin, and Evan (or similar) all being put down as John, where that is what they are recorded and seen as forever.
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 20
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011
What other heroes have become popular names like that? I think generally in the later 20th century at least people have been wary of too much connection with particular people – Winston is not a particularly popular name for people in their 60s to 80s, and here in New Zealand there was no upsurge of Edmunds after Mount Everest was climbed for the first time. I don’t think I know personally a single Edmund.
Ìý
In the UK today Winston is probably more usually seen as a West Indian name. I presume the popularity in that community is due to respect for the wartime leader but I do not know for sure.Ìý That's a hard one to answer....
I've grown up in the Caribbean knowing dozens of Winstons, but it never crossed my mind that it was due to any tribute to Churchill. It may have started out that way, and the name just grew in popularity, to the point where it's just outgrew its origins.
Remember Winston Davis and Winston Benjamin, those outstanding West Indian pace bowlers? -
Message 21
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011
In our birth notices last year was a boy called MacKinnon, and in the notice it specifically said the name was given in honour of a 'great Fiordland explorer'. But I do think that is fairly unusual today. Ìý
Maybe it's a regional thing, or even a male/female thing? But I know several fathers and prospective fathers who've wanted the name of a favourite sportsman as a tribute. Here in Wales, rugby stars are quite commonly celebrated in boys middle names. -
Message 22
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011
Daniel-K,
<Are you sure she didn't say she hated royalty and named her children after Oliver Cromwell and Marcus Junius Brutus?</quote>
What? You never heard of King Oliver?
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Message 23
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011
Not many kids are called Paris Hilton; they are just called Paris. (And when did you last actually come across a man called Paris, those of you objecting to this use for girls?)Ìý
Just yesterday in the supermarket actually Caro, I know 3 men by the name of Paris. Paris was the name of the son of the King of Troy, he who had it off with Helen and both of The Illiad fame. The name is still in use and has been so since ancient times, it most definitely is a male name and there is no female equivalent. As Catigern has already said, naming a female Paris is akin to bestowing Hector, Achilles, Agamemnon or Menelaus on the unfortunate girl.
If, as I suspect was the case with Paris Hilton, a girl was named after the city of Paris then again, imo, it is an unfortunate choice as the name Paris comes from the tribe who once inhabited the land on which the city was built, the Parisii. -
Message 24
Posted by jenny (U14149730) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011
Hmm, I think the only tribute names that are acceptable are those that are to members of one's family, preferably one's forebears.
Anything else is just vulgar!
(Though some are a LOT more vulgar than others - viz. Paris, Jade, Ryan)(Am I allowed to say Ryan?!) -
Message 25
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011
Daniel-K:
On Radio 4's In Our Time the other week it was pointed out that there is an irony in that one of the leaders of the US's post-Civil War campaigns against the Native Americans of the Great Plains, General Sherman, was called William Tecumseh Sherman, the middle name coming from a chief of the Shawnee who had sided with the British in the War of 1812.Ìý
Sherman was known to his friends as "Cump." -
Message 26
Posted by Mr_Edwards (U3815709) on Thursday, 26th May 2011
I was named after Alcuin of York because there happened to be an article about him in the Rosicrucian Digest for the month before my birth (and since my father received his copies by sea from Chicago, that was the latest edition when I was born).
There was also a kid at our school whose given names were Selwyn Lloyd, after a minor (and now obscure) politician.
I would think that anyone calling their kid Herculese these days was a fan of Steptoe and Son, Elton John, or Kevin Szorbo. -
Message 27
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Thursday, 26th May 2011
In reply to Mr Edwards:
I was named after Alcuin of York ...Ìý
I was named after Thomas Becket, because I was baptised on 29th December, the anniversary date of his death.
More a Saint than a hero in history, but from what I´ve read about him, in his lifetime he might had been some kind of a hero, defending his own faith against his King and former "friend" Henry II. -
Message 28
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Thursday, 26th May 2011
Might have been more of a hero if he had stuck to a consistent line but he had a tendency to make agreements with Henry which he then reneged on. Henry's principle of equality before the law was quite a sound one.
Becket's heroic status was confirmed by the manner of his death and the extraordinary public reaction it provoked which lasted several centuries. The closest comparison with Becket in our own time might be Princess Diana. -
Message 29
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Thursday, 26th May 2011
Selwyn Lloyd was Foreign Secretary to Anthony Eden at the time of Suez, later became Chancellor of the Exchequer under Harold Macmillan and was the highest profile victim of the famous, or infamous, 'Night of the Long Knives' in July 1962 when one-third of the Cabinet were summarily dismissed. However Lloyd returned to become Speaker of the House of Commons from 1971-6.
Vic Feather, the TUC General Secretary from 1969-73, who was born in 1908, was named Victor Grayson Hardie Feather, the last forename after the founder of the Labour Party, the first two after a now obscure left-wing Labour MP who mysteriously vanished in 1920, a victim, some say of either British or Soviet intelligence. -
Message 30
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Saturday, 28th May 2011
Paris pales into insignificance beside the "parents" who wanted to name their son "Nike" after their favourite trainers.
ISTR that "Garnett" was briefly popular at the time of the Boer Wars. -
Message 31
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Saturday, 28th May 2011
<quote>Paris pales into insignificance beside the "parents" who wanted to name their son "Nike" after their favourite trainers.
Oh lord, they actually gave a boy a female name? Wonder if they pronounce it correctly as Niki or have they invented a more masculine pronunciation?
Shades of the boy name Sue! -
Message 32
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Saturday, 28th May 2011
<quote postid='109142585'><quote>Paris pales into insignificance beside the "parents" who wanted to name their son "Nike" after their favourite trainers.
Oh lord, they actually gave a boy a female name? Wonder if they pronounce it correctly as Niki or have they invented a more masculine pronunciation?
Shades of the boy name Sue!</quote>
AIUI they rhymed it wirh "Mike" -
Message 33
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Saturday, 28th May 2011
After years of teaching, I insisted to my children that before they named their own offspring they should write down the full name and say it aloud, then do the same with the initials.
My son and his wife actually did that, I'm pleased to say. My daughter got round the problem by having an Indian husband so they chose the names in the Indian way, viz.
Daddima goes to the temple and tells the priest the sex of the child and the date and time of birth. The priest gets out his books and tells Daddima the letter that the name should begin with. Parents look on the internet and find a name they like that begins with the right letter. The meaning of the name influences their choice. -
Message 34
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Saturday, 28th May 2011
That's fine for boys, but can still have unfortunate consequences for girls if they take their husband's surname on marriage, of course.
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Message 35
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Saturday, 28th May 2011
Yes, I remember reading one of Leslie Dunkling's books on names mentioning a family whose surname was Rose and they thought hard about a suitable name and came up with Wild. But she married a man whose surname was Bull. (Wouldn't you think you might consider if there were other more suitable people around to marry? There's a lot of men in the world, and some of them must be okay.)
It's odd that it bothers me if people ignore the etymology of a name by changing its spelling, but am not worried about the changing of classical names to a different sex. Lots of modern names are used for both, anyway - I find it odd that you would call your daughter Hunter, but people do.
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 36
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Sunday, 29th May 2011
Mmm but using a femine name for a male or vise versa is not only ingnoring the etymology but also the history behind the name. Quite often the meaning or namesake of a name is unsuitable for the sex chosen and Nike for a male is a fair example, as silly as naming a boy after any other goddess such as Diana, Aphrodite or Athena.
Perhaps it should be mandatory for prospective parents to look into etymologies before choosing names? Then we wouldn't have children burdened with inappropriate names and, sometimes also with ridiculous spellings, for the rest of their lives. -
Message 37
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Sunday, 29th May 2011
Even worse (IMO) is a case that I know - where the child concerned has a name consisting of just two single letters. I know that it's not particularly unusual in the USA to have an "empty" middle initial, but surely not as a first name, too?
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Message 38
Posted by jenny (U14149730) on Sunday, 29th May 2011
"Perhaps it should be mandatory for prospective parents to look into etymologies before choosing names? Then we wouldn't have children burdened with inappropriate names and, sometimes also with ridiculous spellings, for the rest of their lives."
On the very enjoyable Freakonomics books gives a good example of a correlation that is presented as a causal relationship, in that they surveyed children's names in an LA school and found that all the children called names like Jayleen (cleaning fluid?) did very poorly in life, and concluded that giving a child a duff name adversely affects its prospects.
But, of course, that is only a correlation - the cause of both the name and the poor prospects is the fact that only low-achieving parents gave their children such names......
That said, it will be a much tougher struggle for a child called something like Jayleen to do well in life, as others will judge them adversely just because of their names.
There is such huge, huge 'classism' in names, and I suspect there always will be. -
Message 39
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Monday, 30th May 2011
They might be low-achieving, Jenny, but they are often quite aspirational in their choice of names. I think it is reasonable to say that children in NZ who are killed by family members are generally from families in poverty. While some of the children's names are quite ordinary like Chris, a substantial number are names that seem to show the parents hope for certain qualities in their children or want them to emulate heroes. Here in recent times they have included Serenity, Cherish, Olympia, Tangaroa (the God of the sea), Riri o te rangi which seems to mean the anger of the Sky or Sky god, Sachin by a Fiji Indian family, Jarius, apparently after a NZ drift motor-racing champion (though I notice his name is actually Jairus), and somewhat odd names like Staranise, Hail-Sage and Lillybing (a nickname for a child with a Maori name which means buttercup girl). A good number of these children are Maori, and it may be partly that Maori are more original in their choice of names.
Caro. -
Message 40
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Monday, 30th May 2011
Olympia is another Greek feminine name Caro and not unusual, particularly in this part of the world. More than likely the child was from an immigrant family.
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Message 41
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Monday, 30th May 2011
Heard of a case where a mother wanted to name her infant son "Gooey".
The vicar (or the registrar) queried this, but the mother was determined. She said it was a fine name, the name of the hero of some novels she'd been reading. It was spelled G - U - Y.
Maybe it's true. -
Message 42
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 30th May 2011
I know a woman called Pearl.
She was born on 7 December 1966 - the 25th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor. -
Message 43
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Monday, 30th May 2011
Haven't heard the name Pearl in a long time, both Pearl and Ruby were fairly common in my mother's generation but seem to have gone out of fashion. Florence (or Flo for short) and Lillian (Lil) were popular around the same time also but not heard so much now.
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Message 44
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 30th May 2011
Florence Victoria Shankly Ravenscroft seems to have been known, to her father at least, as "Flossie" - note the return to the OP cunningly inserted here!
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Message 45
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Monday, 30th May 2011
Ruby is very much back in fashion, ID. One of the most popular names of the last two or three years. Presumably in Britain as well as here. Olympia is unusual in NZ but I was thinking of it with its Greek mythology associations and therefore aspirational for the parents.
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 46
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 30th May 2011
Have to be careful naming a girl Olympia - might make an exhibition of herself.
I'll get me coat. -
Message 47
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 31st May 2011
Ruby is very much back in fashion, ID. One of the most popular names of the last two or three years. Presumably in Britain as well as here. Olympia is unusual in NZ but I was thinking of it with its Greek mythology associations and therefore aspirational for the parents.Ìý
Well I'm very glad I'm not there to hear the name Ruby used on children Caro, I can't help but associate the name with middle aged to elderly women in skirts, twin sets and with permed hair!
Sorry, I had assumed with your interest in names that you'd be aware of naming patterns in some immigrant families in NZ. Many people do not name children because names are fashionable or because of a celebrity or hero like western countries, there is usually some form of tradition involved in name selection.
Names such as Olympia or Herkules (as mention before) are almost certainly from a Greek family and will have been selected because 99% of Greeks follow a traditional naming pattern. Ist born son after paternal grandfather, 2nd born son after maternal grandfather, 1st born daughter after paternal grandmother and 2nd born daughter after maternal grandmother. In a Greek family it is irrelevant who else may have the name, or what they may have done. The only relevance is simply the family member for which the child was named. -
Message 48
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Tuesday, 31st May 2011
Ruby's okay. I'm struggling a bit with names like Martha and Olive and those (to me) very old-fashioned Biblical names like Ezekial and Jonas. I see quite a number of Noahs and I do hope my children won't call their sons Noah (they won't).
I can't find if Olympia was of Greek origin or not - there are some people with Greek ancestry in NZ but not a lot. She had a sister called Saliel (both killed by their step-father, having complained he was sexually abusing them) and I can't see where Saliel comes from. Does it have Greek connotations? Mother was Charlene. The girls were definitely born in New Zealand. -
Message 49
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 31st May 2011
Heavens Caro, you've come up with a doozy and there could be many explanations for the names.
Olympia is definitely Greek but a quick look at this site also lists the name as used in Slovakia too .
As far as I'm aware the name comes from Mt Olympos, mythological home of the Greek gods.
Saliel sounds Middle Eastern, it is not Greek. I couldn't find the name either, but Salil is listed as a male Arabic name.
You'll probably have to try and find the biological father or fathers for these girls for a clue into ethnicity. Even the mother could be from an immigrant family and Charlene is merely her "Anglicised" name, many immigrants do change their original names for ease or merely to fit in with the community. It is a very sad story though, what a miserable (and too short) life those poor children would have had. -
Message 50
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Tuesday, 31st May 2011
Who here objects to naming a girl "Uma"?
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