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"Who is Britain's greatest general?"

• Message 1. 

  Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Friday, 8th April 2011

  
  
  Some interesting short biographies there.
  
  More about that on the web site of the National Army Museum with a schedule for the 9 April, the day of celebrity speakers ...
  
  

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• Message 2

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Friday, 8th April 2011

  In my book Marlborough wins hands down. He excelled in every aspect of warfare, his battlefield tactics were brilliant and copied extensively by Frederick the Great and admired by Napoleon; strategically he could out-manouvre his opponents and forced battles where he wanted to fight; logistically his march to the Danube during the Blenheim campaign is a superb example of organization and care for the soldiers under him; politically he held together a fractious coalition of countriesd with very different goals and gave them victory.

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  Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Friday, 8th April 2011

  Wellington gets my vote, for his success in such a variety of environments and tactical/strategic contexts: India, Iberia, Flanders and his amphibious invasion of south western France. As an accomplished duellist, he also gets points for personal skill-at-arms.
  
  I'd also like to put in a word for Robert the Bruce, though: he directed a campaign that went from a 'guerilla' phase right through to conventional and strategically offensive warfare, and his killing of de Bohun before Bannockburn showed that he too excelled as an 'ordinary' knoght, as well as a commander.
  

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  Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Friday, 8th April 2011

  Hi Thomas,
  
  In the context of WW2, my science teacher, who had fought under him, would say unhesitatingly, Field Marshall Slim, not Field Marshalls Montgomery, or Alexander
  
  Tas

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• Message 5

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  Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Friday, 8th April 2011

  I think Marlborough has the edge on Wellington if only because the armies he faced were generally more formidable than those fought by Wellington in the Peninsula (but also because he was better at siege warfare)
  
  Quote from Churchill (admittedly biased): "He commanded the armies of Europe against France for ten campaigns. He fought four great battles and many important actions ... He never fought a battle that he did not win, nor besieged a fortress that he did not take ... He quitted war invincible."

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  Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 8th April 2011

  I wonder if those like Marius who created a totally new organisation for the armies they led don't also have a claim to be hailed in this way? If so, don't Fairfax and Cromwell come into the reckoning?
  
  Personally, I would also count Bill Slim as one of Britain's greatest, alongside Marlborough.

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  Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Friday, 8th April 2011

  i read a biography of auchinlek - obviously very biased
  
  his take was that the defensive battle of alemein was the true genius - with little resources he brought the afrika korps to their knees - and lwould have led to a much better offensive alemein - quicker and cleaner
  
  not sure how true that is
  
  st

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  Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Friday, 8th April 2011

  I think Marlborough has the edge on Wellington if only because the armies he faced were generally more formidable than those fought by Wellington in the Peninsula (but also because he was better at siege warfare)
  
  Quote from Churchill (admittedly biased): "He commanded the armies of Europe against France for ten campaigns. He fought four great battles and many important actions ... He never fought a battle that he did not win, nor besieged a fortress that he did not take ... He quitted war invincible."  Aaahh, but Marlborough was untested except in the strategic context of conventional warfare within western Europe.
  
  Churchill was indeed somewhat biased, being a member of the family etc...

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• Message 9

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  Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 9th April 2011

  The National Army Museum's mission statement says that its purpose is to communicate 'the importance of the history and heritage of the British Army' which it believes to be relevent because 'the British Army played a decisive role in the creation of the nation state of Great Britain, as we recognise it today'.
  
  Considering this, therefore, it's strange that the National Army Museum should include Oliver Cromwell in the list as he was an English general - not a British one - and he died nearly half a century before the creation of the state of Great Britain. Similarly Marlborough was an English general at Blenheim and Ramillies so his record in those battles should also be discounted. The British Army was founded in 1707 with the Treaty of Union and fought its first battle at Oudenarde the following year with Marlborough in command. So Marlborough's record at Oudenarde and Malplaquet can fairly be included in the list although the somewhat disatrous latter (i.e. Malplaquet) would probably count against him in this competition.

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  Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Sunday, 10th April 2011

  When it was said to Winston Churchill that the Battle of Britain was his Waterloo, he replied, "No, it was my Blenheim."
  

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• Message 11

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  Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Monday, 11th April 2011

  Britain was created in 1603, when the word was first used as a national description, not 1707 so Cromwell easily qualifies as a British general (the Civil War could also be said to have started in either Ireland or Scotland) and having famously (or infamously) fought in both Scotland and Ireland to subordinate both to rule from London he did more than most to make the term politically effective.

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• Message 12

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  Posted by Andrew Spencer (U1875271) on Tuesday, 12th April 2011

  If we are allowed to include 'English' as well as British, as a medievalist I would certainly want to put in a word for Henry V. Agincourt was, of course, a great tactical victory perhaps unequalled in British military history, but most impressive was his systematic, town by town, conquest of Normandy and then most of Northern France from 1417 onwards, a work of military, diplomatic and logistic genius.
  
  If we are sticking to just 'British', then I'd join Catigern in plumping for Wellington who proved himself a master of war in all theatres, though his siege record may drag him down a bit (Burgos and all that, plus the probably uneccesary carnage at Badajoz).

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• Message 13

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  Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Tuesday, 12th April 2011

  In reply to Andrew Spencer:
  
  Thanks for that post Andrew.
  
  My intention by setting up that link in my OP was to point to poll by the National Army Museum and the events related to that, as an information to someone who´s interested in that.
  
  I would say that for this thread, the term referring to Britain as an geopolitical entity, it is of course very welcome to extent it to an debate not only sticking on "British" Generals.
  
  I also asked myself whom of the suggested Generals on the NAM poll I´d given my vote. Not easy to say, but I´d tended to vote for Monty. Cromwell is to me more a politician than a General, for his influence in the history of Britain (again referring to the geopolitical term) goes beyond the leading of battles. I even would dare to say that he was setting the core for modern Britain during his "reign".
  
  Everyone may do as he pleases and I wouldn´t object to extent this thread as well about the Navy or / and RAF, even when they doesn´t have the same name for that rank. But in the light of successful leaders in Britains military history it might be of interest as well.
  
  Thomas
  
  

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  Posted by Andrew Spencer (U1875271) on Tuesday, 12th April 2011

  Dear Thomas
  
  thanks for your reply. I would have thought all generals have to be politicians of one sort or another and most of those who are considered great generals throughout history (Alexander, Ceasar, Napoleon etc) were politicians as much as they were generals.
  
  Cromwell's geo-political influence of course went beyond leading battles, but the reason it did so was because he was so successful in those battles.
  
  I've never been quite sure what to make of Monty, not being too much of a WWII buff. Certainly, he seems to have been a soliders' general, very careful of the lives of his men (jnfluenced by the carnage he had seen on the Western Front in WWI), but excessively cautious most of the time. The American generals certainly were very critical of him but how much of that was professional jealousy I don't know.
  
  Of course, generalling in the 20th century was a very different proposition to that of earlier centuries with the huge armies making the moments of inspirational battle turning generalship of a Wellington or a Marlborough things of the past.
  
  All the best
  
  Andrew

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• Message 15

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  Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Tuesday, 12th April 2011

  Hello Andrew,
  
  I rather think that whether one is just a General only and / or politician as well depends on his character and attitudes to aspire beyond military leading to politics.
  
  Monty and Kitchener, two famous leading soldiers in the last century might have stick to the term to be concentrated on their military duties and keep themselves out of politics.
  
  The American generals certainly were very critical of him but how much of that was professional jealousy I don't know.  
  
  I think that this has to do with the leading of the operations of the Allied Forces which was for Europe under Eisenhower. But most jealousy to Monty was Patton.
  
  Of course, generalling in the 20th century was a very different proposition to that of earlier centuries with the huge armies making the moments of inspirational battle turning generalship of a Wellington or a Marlborough things of the past. 
  
  This is probably why it isn´t that easy to vote about the selected generals, because even the assessment is quite difficult, if one likes to give a fair vote.
  
  All the best to you too.
  
  Thomas
  
  
  

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Sunday, 17th April 2011

  Britain was created in 1603, when the word was first used as a national description, not 1707 so Cromwell easily qualifies as a British general (the Civil War could also be said to have started in either Ireland or Scotland) and having famously (or infamously) fought in both Scotland and Ireland to subordinate both to rule from London he did more than most to make the term politically effective. 
  
  To suggest that the dual monarchy of James I in 1603 somehow created 'Britain' seems to be stretching a point somewhat.
  
  The political concept of Britain is almost certainly pre-historic. In terms of written history, however, in can be said (and with all due respect to Julius Caesar) to date from AD 43 and the Claudian Conquest. And after the departure of the Romans there were other candidates who could equally be described as being de facto 'Kings of Britain' well before James I. For example there was King Athelstan in 937 and also Edward Longshanks in 1291.
  
  Far too much is made of the proclamation of the Union Jack in 1606 and James I fantasies regarding a 'Kingdom of Great Britain' remained just that during his lifetime. It seems to be part of a desperate trend among some to try to make out that the UK is somehow over 100 years older than it is. The Kingdom of Great Britain was formed in 1707.

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