History HubΒ permalink
Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Β
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
In the Independent last week there was an article about heirs to various thrones living in Britain. I had no idea I was rubbing shoulders with the Crown Prince of Burma while I was in London! He is teaching there while waiting to get his crown back. (Might be a while.) I have wondered who might be put in place of Colonel Gaddafi and see Prince Mohammed is still around and I probably met him on the tube in London, too.
However, what I wanted to query (perhaps from Allan D) were two claimants to the British or Scottish thrones. Michel Lafosse of Belgium, and Franz Herzog von Bayern, Duke of Bavaria. I couldn't understand how there could be two when they would both surely come down the Stuart line, but coincidentally while reading my new book on Scottish genealogy I found a page about Lafosse who claims to come from a wedding between Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Countess of Massilan. (My author was not convinced.) Do any of you know more of this?
And I was puzzled by the statement that said, "If Charles I hadn't been executed, Franz Herzog von Bayern, would be king." What does Charles' execution have to do with it. Surely if Charles I hadn't been executed Charles II would still have become king eventually, and while such changes might have meant Charles married someone else and had legitimate offspring, or something, as it stands, I can't see what the execution had to do with any line of succession.
What am I misunderstanding here?
Caro.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 2
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
You're not misunderstanding owt, Caro - the statement that has you puzzled is pure drivel, for the reasons you've given yourself.
Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 3
Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Saturday, 9th April 2011
If yoi google the two names you will find all the info. Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria von Wittelsbach seems to be the generally recognised heir in the Stuart line. They have not claimed the title of King since the younger brother of the young pretender died in 1807. And of course they were not removed from the succession by the beheading of Charles I but by James II fleeing, the Glorious Revolution and the Act of Succession. And even if the Act of Succession were to be repealed, or at least the bar on Catholics, it would not be retrospective so he would not become king.
The other appears to be a charlatan who has invested a spurious genealogy and history.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 4
Posted by Patrick Wallace (U196685) on Tuesday, 12th April 2011
Much more interesting to consider the "what ifs" of the heirs who died and left the way for a younger son to succeed - the older brothers of Henry VIII and Charles I, for example.
Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 5
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 12th April 2011
Much more interesting to consider the "what ifs" of the heirs who died and left the way for a younger son to succeed - the older brothers of Henry VIII and Charles I, for example.Β
How so ?
All we can really say is that, if the elder brothers had survived, things might have been different. Or not.
When Henry's elder brother died, no one could predict the marital travails of the new heir to the throne. Likewise, there is no real way of knowing what Arthur would have done as king, nor how any offspring of his would have behaved.
In the end, it is only interesting because you can make anything at all up. If it is interesting, it is not terribly useful.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 6
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Wednesday, 13th April 2011
I have remembered now a television programme which seemed to decide an Australian man would be on the throne now if everything had followed its natural course. I don't remember now what the starting point for this was (ie which bit of history they started from), so I don't know why they didn't choose Franz Bonaventura for their 'monarch'.
Cheers, Caro.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 7
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 13th April 2011
There must, somewhere, be a claimant who is the "legitimate" heir, a member of the House of Godwin, surely?
Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 8
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Wednesday, 13th April 2011
How would you decide that, though, when they didn't use primogeniture for their choice of kings? But, if you've nothing better to do, fire ahead and let us know in several months who you've decided should really be on the celebratory wedding mugs that I wouldn't let my husband buy. (But I did buy him two coasters and they cost 5 pounds, which I thought was very expensive for nothing more than a gesture.)
Cheers, Caro.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 9
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 13th April 2011
Not my choice of gesture, Caro. When his old man got married, I was sitting on the river bank - blooming difficult to find a decent spot to fish, that day ........
Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 10
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Wednesday, 13th April 2011
It is with considerable satisfaction that I can report that there has not been a single request for a street party in Glasgow nor anywhere else in Scotland apart from Edinburgh and St Andrew's, neither of which are in truth really Scottish.
Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 11
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Wednesday, 13th April 2011
It was my son's first birthday the day Prince Charles married. But I think I recall watching the television that day, after all our opera singer was chosen to sing. Though how come I seem to recall watching this in the middle of the day - surely their wedding wasn't at 11pm?
Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 12
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Thursday, 14th April 2011
It is with considerable satisfaction that I can report that there has not been a single request for a street party in Glasgow nor anywhere else in Scotland apart from Edinburgh and St Andrew's, neither of which are in truth really Scottish.Β
Oh rhubarb, ferval*.
Our village is showing the Royal Wedding on the Big Screen in the Village Hall. There'll be fruit cake (home-made) and a glass of Ghastly Spumante for everyone. All proceeds are going to the Church boiler fund. Everyone's looking forward to it - a traditional English 'do', although I suppose in the old days our Lord of the Manor would have provided free booze for us all. He lives in France and won't be around for the celebrations, the miserable traitor.
All harmless fun - what could be nicer? (Rhetorical question.)
*Joke - please don't you go off on one.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 13
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Thursday, 14th April 2011
Funnily enough, I planted a new rhubarb root this week.
You wouldn't deny us our chance to look askance at the hierarchically obsessed English, would you? Anyway, we've got our own royal wedding coming up in Edinburgh soon after when I'm sure thousands will just happen to be passing by and stop for a quick look if for no other reason than to see the English rugby captain.
Street parties for national events doesn't seem to be a Scottish thing. I can't remember any even for the coronation when the city, and very many private houses, was decorated overall, but then, I was only wee.
I'll be doing my 'get together with the neighbours' thing at the end of June when we have our local event in our lovely Victorian cobbled back lanes and back gardens. Bars, bands and people serving food in their gardens, stalls with plants, crafts and all the junk we've been trying to get rid of. A great day if it doesn't pour.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 14
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Thursday, 14th April 2011
apart from Edinburgh and St Andrew's, neither of which are in truth really ScottishΒ
Good.
They can stay in England when we eventually let the rest go. You know, when the oil is dry.
Rhubarb. Deep fried.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 15
Posted by Patrick Wallace (U196685) on Thursday, 14th April 2011
I have remembered now a television programme which seemed to decide an Australian man would be on the throne now if everything had followed its natural course. I don't remember now what the starting point for this was (ie which bit of history they started from), so I don't know why they didn't choose Franz Bonaventura for their 'monarch'.
Cheers, Caro. Β
Tony Robinson's Channel 4 programme Britain's Real Monarch, which was what (I think) an earlier poster had in mind, which started from the proposition that Edward IV was not, in fact, the biological son of the then Duke of York and therefore his daughter Elizabeth conveyed no legitimacy when she married Henry VII.
He was trying indirectly to say that the hereditary principle is inherently a nonsense; but the programme completely ignored the point that it had always been treated with some flexibility, to put it mildly, and more importantly that the last time there had been any interference with it was the Act of Settlement 1701, which is still in force - or in other words, the monarch is who Parliament says it is, whatever hanky-panky there might or might not have been 500 years ago.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 16
Posted by Mr_Edwards (U3815709) on Tuesday, 19th April 2011
Another foreign Emperor educated in the UK was the current "pretender" to the German throne, who did his A'levels in Perth.
Another German to be considered as an alternative monarch might be Felicitas von Reiche who is in direct line of eldest children from Queen Victoria. Her mother was Frederieke von Osten, daughter of HRH Princess Felicitas, eldest child of Prince Wilhelm, son of the Kaiser, himself son of Princess Victoria, the Princess Royal.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 17
Posted by Harpo (U14643022) on Tuesday, 19th April 2011
He was trying indirectly to say that the hereditary principle is inherently a nonsense;Β
Sure is! At the end of the day legitimacy depends SOLELY on might. The 'rightful' monarch is there because 'might' says so!Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
-
Message 18
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Tuesday, 19th April 2011
I had no idea I was rubbing shoulders with the Crown Prince of Burma while I was in London!Β
I was at a friend's birthday party at a restaurant in London in the late 1990s and only later discovered that one of the other guests had been the daughter of the last Shah of Iran. When later after Princess Leila Pahlavi tragically died in 2001 (aged only 31) a friend called me up to ask if I had heard the news. "What news?" I asked. It was only then that I found out who the 'Leila' whom I vaguely remembered from that evening a few years previously really was. It just goes to show that you never know who you might rub shoulders with when you're out and about. People don't wear name badges and certainly don't wear title badges particularly when those titles are defunct.
P.S. A genuinely tragic family the Pahlavis. Leila's brother Alireva committed suicide in New York earlier this year 10 years after his sister's death.Link to this forum: Lost kings in England, and the Stuart line
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Β to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ iD
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ navigation
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ links
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Β© 2014 The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.