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St George's Day
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Message 1.听
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Wednesday, 6th April 2011
April 23 will be St George's Day, which is the day when we're supposed to take out our flags of St George and wave them, to show how English we are....
But how English is St George himself? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he a Turkish soldier who knew nothing of England? He seems to be a mythical character, much like Robin Hood and King Arthur, of whom we know little of nothing. For all we know, he could even be a fictional character, who never existed at all. I think the cross of St George was brought back from the Crusades by Richard the Lionheart, and eventually his popularity grew until the Hundred Years' War, when King Edward III adopted him as England's patron saint, while England became consumed with a sense of Englishness as they fought the French enemy. It seems that St George is nothing more than a display of jingoistic patriotism, with little redeeming factors about his legend, aside from the slaying of a mythical dragon.
Before St George was adopted as England's patron saint, apparently St Edward the Confessor occupied that status. In the 13th century, King Henry III adopted this Saxon king as the patron saint, and had an unhealthy obsession with him, to the point that he gave his eldest son that Saxon name, at a time when it was vogue to use Norman names. Then, his great-grandson did away with Edward the Confessor, and embraced this shadowy St George.
Wales and Ireland have St David and St Patrick respectively as their patron saints, which makes sense, because they're the missionaries who apparently converted those countries to Christianity. Scotland's ties with Andrew the apostle seems tenuous, but that's another story....
Surely, the right thing to do is do away with this St George, and adopt Edward the Confessor as the patron saint. How pious he really was might be up for debate, but at least Edward the Confessor's English.... -
Message 2
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Wednesday, 6th April 2011
April 23 will be St George's Day, which is the day when we're supposed to take out our flags of St George and wave them, to show how English we are....听
Who says so? St George鈥檚 Day isn鈥檛 a public holiday in England.
But how English is St George himself? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he a Turkish soldier听
I鈥檒l correct you because you are wrong. You鈥檙e making the classic mistake of confusing St George with his contemporary St Nicholas. George was Palestinean. Nicholas was from Lycia in what is now modern day Turkey. Neither, however, was 鈥楾urkish鈥 as they both lived 700 years before the Turks migrated to that part of the world.
who knew nothing of England?听
Correct. St George lived 600 years before the foundation of the Kingdom of England. And there is no evidence that ever even came to Britain or anywhere near.
I think the cross of St George was brought back from the Crusades by Richard the Lionheart,听
This is almost certainly true. The red cross on a white field, however, is an ancient pagan symbol depicting the rising sun and long pre-dates Christianity.
King Edward III adopted him as England's patron saint听
He did no such thing. Edward III adopted St George as the patron saint of the Order of the Garter 鈥 that鈥檚 it.
Before St George was adopted as England's patron saint, apparently St Edward the Confessor occupied that status.听
And before Edward the Confessor there was St Edmund the Martyr and before him St Augustine of Canterbury.
Wales and Ireland have St David and St Patrick respectively as their patron saints, which makes sense, because they're the missionaries who apparently converted those countries to Christianity.听
This strengthens the case of St Augustine perhaps?
Scotland's ties with Andrew the apostle seems tenuous, but that's another story....听
Why are the Scots never given the third degree about this the way the English are about St George?
Surely, the right thing to do is do away with this St George, and adopt Edward the Confessor as the patron saint. How pious he really was might be up for debate, but at least Edward the Confessor's English....听
Good suggestion shivfan. I鈥檓 certainly no fan of the cult of St George. But then again I鈥檓 not Christian. I find it strange that English Christians, however, can鈥檛 just have several patron saints. Why the obsession with just having 1? I suspect that there鈥檚 more than an element of wanting to ape the Irish with their St Patrick鈥檚 Day in all this. -
Message 3
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 6th April 2011
Surely, the right thing to do is do away with this St George, and adopt Edward the Confessor as the patron saint. How pious he really was might be up for debate, but at least Edward the Confessor's English....
听
Surely in a modern multi-cultural England St George is a far better saint? A first rate international saint with patronages from India to Ethiopia to England.
But more importantly St edward's day is 5th January and who'd want to take that day off to celebrate.
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Message 4
Posted by Portly (U1381981) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
The recent 麻豆约拍 TV series "The Normans" rather confirmed my belief that the Normans were a truly repulsive bunch of murderous bullies, and brought home to me that all this business of St. George and the red Crusader's cross were very much Norman innovations. The programmes also sowed a seed of doubt in my mind about our great English cathedrals, which the Normans were erecting as symbols of their power while persecuting the people in the surrounding areas.
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Message 5
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
The Normans were no better, nor were they worse than anyone else of their day and taking the moral high ground over people and events 1,000yrs in the past is rather a futile exercise.
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Message 6
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
More importantly, St George's Day also commemorates the birth and death of William Shakespeare who has become something of an English secular saint, as anyone who has visited Stratford-upon-Avon will testify.
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Message 7
Posted by Portly (U1381981) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
The Normans were no better, nor were they worse than anyone else of their day 听
I disagree - I think they were quite a lot worse than anyone else. I wonder if you have heard of the Harrying of the North, in the course of which the Normans conducted a campaign of genocide in the North of England, while at the same time building some large cathedrals.
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Message 8
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
'Genocide' is a word that is bandied about far too frequently these days - William the Conqueror had no intention of severely depopulating the north of England. If the Normans had really been so harsh, Portly, they wouldn't have melded with the English to produce an Anglo-Norman nation so quickly. I'd suggest you abandon Wikipedia and check out the life and career of Henry of Huntingdon...
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Message 9
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
Yes I know of the subjugation of the North, and still the Normans were hardly the first nor the last to carry out a scortched earth policy on a population. As for their hypocracy, nothing new there either.
As I've already said, it is futile to still be griping about something that happened a millenium ago. It is hardly going to change anything. -
Message 10
Posted by Portly (U1381981) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
Ha ha! I still assert my right to dislike the Normans! Even the great Sir Mortimer Wheeler nursed an intense dislike for the Romans.
The Normans may have integrated with the native population over the course of centuries, but to this day their families still hang on to the property they had requisitioned by force from the natives. -
Message 11
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
Since when were the Anglo/Saxons and Vikings natives of Briton?
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Message 12
Posted by Portly (U1381981) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
I don't think there is any European country of which you can state conclusively that any race had lived there since the beginning of time!
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Message 13
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
Except the Normans are somehow different for taking from those who took by force also?
At least William had a claim to the throne which is more than the Anglo Saxons ever had. -
Message 14
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
We Normans won - deal with it!
What's more, our integration with previous invaders, such as the Anglo-Scandinavians, took decades, rather than centuries. -
Message 15
Posted by Portly (U1381981) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
There isn't any evidence that the Anglo-Saxons did "invade" Britain. Many historians and archaeologists believe that they just drifted over and merged with the existing population in the same way that modern-day immigrants tend to do.
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Message 16
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
There isn't any evidence that the Anglo-Saxons did "invade" Britain. Many historians and archaeologists believe that they just drifted over and merged with the existing population in the same way that modern-day immigrants tend to do. 听 Tripe! This view is held by a handful of silly archaeologists, such as Francis Prior, but no serious historians. Besides, even if it *were* true of the initial Adventus Saxonum, which it isn't, it's absolutely indisputable that the unified Kingdom of England that our great leader, William the Conqueror, took over was created by fire and sword by the kings of Wessex in the 9th-11th centuries.
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Message 17
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
Quite frankly, I don't believe in a Anglo/Saxon invasion and full scale slaughter either, nor do I believe the old myth that all the Celts were entirely pushed into the western fringes. DNA has disproven that theory, but neither could it have been as peaceful, as you suggest.
After all, the Anglo/Saxons did displace the Celtic upper classes (of what is now England), in much the same way as the Normans later displaced the Anglo/Saxon aristocracy. And I think we can be sure that the Britons didn't hand their land and positions over, to new-comers who just drifted across the channel, out of the goodness of their hearts. -
Message 18
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
Quite frankly, I don't believe in a Anglo/Saxon invasion and full scale slaughter either, nor do I believe the old myth that all the Celts were entirely pushed into the western fringes. DNA has disproven that theory, but neither could it have been as peaceful, as you suggest.
After all, the Anglo/Saxons did displace the Celtic upper classes (of what is now England), in much the same way as the Normans later displaced the Anglo/Saxon aristocracy. And I think we can be sure that the Britons didn't hand their land and positions over, to new-comers who just drifted across the channel, out of the goodness of their hearts.
听 Absolutely, ID - here's to Highamist theories of elite conquest (at least for the north, about the ravaging of which Portly was moaning)! -
Message 19
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Friday, 8th April 2011
Thanks for the feedback, guys, though I'm not sure how this thread became a reconstruction of the Battle of Hastings....
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Message 20
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 8th April 2011
Sorry Shivfan, I should have let the challenge go by!
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Message 21
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Sunday, 24th April 2011
Surely, the right thing to do is do away with this St George, and adopt Edward the Confessor as the patron saint. How pious he really was might be up for debate, but at least Edward the Confessor's English....
听
Surely in a modern multi-cultural England St George is a far better saint? A first rate international saint with patronages from India to Ethiopia to England.
But more importantly St edward's day is 5th January and who'd want to take that day off to celebrate.听
Unfortunately, because St George is a fictional character, idiots from the far-right can blindly claim that he had Anglo-Saxon features, and hurl abuse at others who might want to think otherwise....
'A St George's Day celebration portraying the English saint as a young black man wearing an England football shirt has provoked a vicious hate campaign against a senior clergyman at Manchester Cathedral. Canon Andrew Shanks has been inundated with obscene letters and abusive phone calls since it emerged that the church would play host to a pioneering new service to mark the feast of the third-century dragon-slayer. Greater Manchester Police have been called in to investigate ahead of next month's performance of "Redcrosse: A New Celebration of England and St George".'
if he really existed, he was most likely Palestinian, and could possibly have had dark skin. But of course, the less desirable elements of our society could never accept such a debate, and have sadly resorted to threats....
Better to have a St Edward or a St Edmund, about whom we have no doubt, than this fictional character. I'm disappointed to hear that this year St George's Day has been moved to May 2, because it's not supposed to clash with Holy Saturday. So, unfortunately, we're going to have to put up with more ignorant rubbish on May 2. -
Message 22
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Sunday, 24th April 2011
'A St George's Day celebration portraying the English saint as a young black man wearing an England football shirt 听
Sounds fine to me; we have real modern day black heros in England football shirts. Why not St George too?
if he really existed, he was most likely Palestinian, and could possibly have had dark skin. But of course, the less desirable elements of our society could never accept such a debate, and have sadly resorted to threats....
听
Doesn't that make the racist nutters the problem, not (a possibly mythical) St. George? I'm not surrendering my culture bexcause some ****ers are obsessed with someone's skin colour. And isn't that even more of an argument for keeping a Palestinian as a national saint rather than giving in to the racists and saying only a white Englishman is acceptable? -
Message 23
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 24th April 2011
Well people can picture God anyway they want but presumably all of Jesus' dna came from the gene-pool that was around the "Fertile Crescent"-probably largely "Semitic".. It has not prevented White Anglo-Saxon Protestants from calling themselves followers of Jesus Christ.
In fact the whole era of the conversion and the work of the Saints was pretty intimately connected with the teaching mission that Jesus gave the 12 and his larger following, with the assumption that- as teachers- they had something important to give that others lacked.. Hence those who learned from that were quite happy to be associated with those "great examples" who it seemed could really practice what they preached, and the whole tradition of giving children Saint's names as personal names (Christian names) indicates the hope that they would grow to be like those who seemed to have lived an exemplary life.
Moreover just as people can not own God, of Jesus, or the Prophet Mohamed just because they become a follower, so it would be a denigration of anyone greater than us to claim ownership.. So we share St. George and his flag with at least the Georgians.. But it is Christian to share.
Cass -
Message 24
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Sunday, 24th April 2011
According to Wiki the patronages of St George are
"Many Patronages of Saint George exist around the world, including: Aragon, Catalonia, England, Ethiopia, Georgia, Greece, India, Iraq, Lithuania, Palestine, Portugal, Serbia and Russia, as well as the cities of Genoa, Amersfoort, Beirut, Fakiha, Bteghrine, C谩ceres, Ferrara, Freiburg, Kumanovo, Ljubljana, Pomorie, Preston, Qormi, Rio de Janeiro, Lod, Barcelona, Moscow, Tamworth and the Maltese island of Gozo, as well as a wide range of professions, organizations and disease sufferers"
And the various faiths and demonimations in which he is venerated
"Roman Catholicism
Anglicanism
Eastern Orthodoxy
Lutheranism
Coptic Orthodox
Islam"
If I were a believer I would have thought it an advantage to highlight and celebrate and our commonalities and similarities with others, rather than concentrate on immaterial differences such as skin colour. -
Message 25
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 24th April 2011
ID
I know that you do not like my long posts.. But in short the point that you make was the theme of this piece that I wrote in 2006 when St. George's Day fell- not on Easter week-end- but on the day of the London marathon.
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THE LONDON MARATHON 2006 - AN ENGLISH RACE
The 26th running of the London Marathon this year fell on St.George鈥檚 Day, which seems most appropriate since this particular event has gradually become established as one of the central annual rituals of our national life. Moreover it seems characteristically English that this country, that long ago took as its patron saint a middle-eastern knight, should have taken to its heart this ultimate challenge of athletic resolve and determination modelled on an heroic exploit of Greek history. There is a common strand linking the two. St.George took as his own another people鈥檚 struggle against the evil persecution suffered at the hands of a dragon, while the first marathon run was also undertaken as an act of public service and the London marathon has become associated with massive fund-raising for good-causes.
The cross of St. George, therefore, is not really an English equivalent of the crosses of Saints David, Patrick, or Andrew. These holy men were part of the internal history of the Welsh, Scots and Irish, and are appropriate figureheads for those who wish to put the salvation of those British peoples first. It is the pride of English history, however, that the English have often not put England鈥檚 narrow self-interest first. Of course the Angles have never been angels, not even as Roman slaves for sale : but Mrs Thatcher was speaking for us when she apologised to the people of Czechoslovakia that in a crucial moment in our history a British Prime Minister could refer to them as 鈥榩eople in a far of land of whom we know nothing.鈥 In 1938 Englishmen found that their word was no longer their bond. Eventually we stood by the Poles in 1939, but abandoned them in 1945. Historically, however, the English have always wished for others to have the freedom to run their own affairs in peace and prosperity. Also, as during the London marathon, they have most often cheered and celebrated those people who have chosen to join-in our race.
The word 鈥榬ace鈥, however, is one that is now overloaded with evil and tragic connotations. In 1939 Dr.Julian Huxley wrote an article 鈥淩ace in Europe鈥 as a counter-blast to the racism that was especially prevalent in Nazi Germany. He observed that the word had no exact meaning and that its vagueness had made it popular with writers who liked to use scientific themes as an excuse for a descent into violent nationalism. Though he does not specifically acknowledge it, this Oxford biologist may have felt some family responsibility. His grandfather, Thomas Henry Huxley, did a great deal to further the process of applying a racial classification to the peoples of the world, and this leant itself to Darwinian interpretations regarding a 鈥榣eague table鈥 of races. Julian Huxley rejected the possibility of biologically distinct races existing in Europe even during the tribalism of the Dark Ages, so that the earlier use of the word 鈥榬ace鈥 in English literature and life had to be based much more on the marathon-type model. In other words a race happened when successive generations shared a common commitment and challenge, along with common values, and even that sense of support which gives those who turn out to watch and cheer a feeling that it is their race too.
One of the most notable exploits in this year鈥檚 marathon saw Sir Steven Redgrave achieve his fund-raising target of five million pounds. It was during his first encounter on TV with another national treasure, his distant cousin Vanessa Redgrave, that Sir Steven learned of his descent from an illustrious Viking, no doubt also a formidable oarsman. And it is not just in our national sports and arts that we have a long history of recruiting useful additions to our performance strength. Back in the eleventh century the reign of the Viking Canute was seen as an improvement on the failings of Ethelred the Unready ; and Earl Godwin, Canute鈥檚 right hand man in England, married into Canute鈥檚鈥檚 family. In their accounts of the subsequent dramas of 1066 very few English history books have attached much significance to the fact that the 鈥淓nglish鈥 King Harold, like his brothers Tostig, Leofwine, and Gyrrth, was half Viking. And when it came to Hastings another 鈥榥orth-man鈥 proved to be 鈥榓 winner鈥 and was soon acclaimed King of England.
Subsequently the Norman input into the established strengths of Anglo-Saxon England created a capacity to resist foreign conquest that has endured. And, just as the London marathon has recruited entrants from far and wide over the last 26 years, so the life of England has become stronger and more vigorous over the last thousand years through a similar process. In fact, looking at my 1905 dictionary a number of applications of the word 鈥榬ace鈥 would seem to apply. The idea of a human race as one race with a common descent from Adam and Eve is shared by Christians, Jews and Muslims. However, a 鈥 peculiar and distinct flavour鈥 of the English could be recognised by Shakespeare through their intrinsic character of 鈥榲igour鈥. It was not perhaps a vigour of 鈥榬apid motion鈥 so much as a slow and enduring growth or 鈥榩rogress鈥, so that it retained a capacity to stand firm. Later the accelerating pace of economic change in England became like the races that are found in rivers 鈥 鈥榓 strong and rapid current鈥, or the harnessed energy that could be directed and 鈥榗hannelled to drive a water wheel鈥. 鈥楾here is a tide in the affairs of man etc鈥; and Niall Ferguson explained in his book 鈥淓mpire. How Britain Made the Modern World.鈥 By the time of Neville Chamberlain, however, there was already a sense that England鈥檚 role in that process was not something to boast about, and the horrors of the last 66 years have done little to abate this feeling in spite of 鈥榦ur finest hour鈥. This has been accentuated by the fact that the English- as the senior partners in Britain and the British Empire- have often been expected to 鈥榯ake the blame鈥 for whatever went wrong.
So what kind of tide is racing now that the dynamics of a particular phase of world history seem to be played out ? Apparently modern primary school children aspire to be sports stars, pop stars, actors, and celebrities. They are the modern heroes. At the end of the day what they do is only a game or only intended for entertainment so they must be seen as free from the sins committed by those who wished to make the world better place. Running the marathon similarly probably does harm to no-one, and forty thousand people covering more than a million miles between them is just an amazing feat of human togetherness and a confirmation of continuing vigour that must find an outlet somewhere.
So the race goes on and the marathon will be run again next year. And who knows? As it will fall on my birthday in 2007, perhaps it is time that I took on that challenge. But have I nothing better to do? Would it not involve leaving undone those things that I ought to have done?
Up in Rudston churchyard in Yorkshire the inscription on Winifred Holtby鈥檚 grave reads:- 鈥楪od give me work Till my life shall end And life Till my work is done.鈥 Oh! The English and their work/life balance. I have often wondered with my French family and friends just what it was that made the English come to wrestle with the wooded clay wildernesses of these islands, at a time when people like the Franks were heading down to loot the riches of the Mediterranean world. As in the Sacha Distell, song the French have a very specific and rather different idea of 鈥渢he good life鈥. What kind of country is it when forty thousand people鈥檚 idea of a 鈥榙ay of rest鈥 is to run, walk or hobble 26 miles? England is still the country of the rolled up sleeves and elbow grease; a country where anyone who is willing to muck in and 鈥榙o their bit鈥 will earn acceptance. But just how are we to channel our traditional vigour to meet the challenges of the modern world?
It was a question that was addressed by the contributors to 鈥淭he Character of England鈥 in 1947; and we are going through same the kind of period of introspection and uncertainty that Sir Ernest Barker referred to in his editorial summing up. Such periods have usually come in the course of, or immediately after, great periods of war and national tension. And they have often resulted in efforts like the work that was published in 1776 as a 鈥渃heck on the licentiousness of the times鈥. The 鈥楤ritish Plutarch鈥 detailed the lives great Britons since the time of Henry VIII so that 鈥淏y having before our eyes the principles of men of honour and probity, enforced by example, we shall be animated to fix upon some great model to be the rule of our conduct.鈥 The work was inspired by Plutarch鈥檚 鈥楲ives鈥 and with it the Greek conviction that in the human race of the life of mind , body and spirit everyone can be a winner if they work at it. And this was the message of the last piece of this year鈥檚 marathon TV coverage. On 24 April we got the final instalment of 鈥淩un For Glory鈥 a reality TV series in which Sally Gunnell and Steve Cram took a bunch of most unlikely athletes and trained them for the marathon. They succeeded against all the odds, so there is hope for us all, when we finally discover the real race for our times.
***
Cass -
Message 26
Posted by Mr_Edwards (U3815709) on Tuesday, 26th April 2011
Our King Alfred the Great is venerated as a Saint in the Roman Catholic and the various Eastern Orthodox churches. (I note that someone has said on Wikipedia that he has never officially been sanctified but the Catholic encyclopedia lists him as a saint). His Saint's Day is 26 October, which would seem to me a far better day to have a public holiday.
Unfortunately, the Anglican Church only calls him a "Christian Hero". This can, of course, by solved by disestablishing the Anglican Church and establishing the British Orthodox Church in its place. This would have the added advantage of confusing those who reject the Pope, since England's Pope would then be the Pope of Alexandria rather than the Pope of Rome. -
Message 27
Posted by arty macclench (U14332487) on Thursday, 28th April 2011
I don't think 'Palestinian' would have had much meaning in the 3rd century. By all accounts Georgiou's family were of Christian Hellene culture. May be they had been originally be Jewish, who knows?- but being born in the province of Syria Palestina is not to equate Georgiou's family with the people we think of as Palestinian today, even if they may be descended from the inhabitants of those lands 1800 years ago. Isn't that like saying St Patrick was English because he was (possibly) born in southern mainland Britain.
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Message 28
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Thursday, 28th April 2011
arty macclench
I think there may be people who have never heard of Deccapolis.
Cass -
Message 29
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 29th April 2011
I don't think 'Palestinian' would have had much meaning in the 3rd century. By all accounts Georgiou's family were of Christian Hellene culture. May be they had been originally be Jewish, who knows?- but being born in the province of Syria Palestina is not to equate Georgiou's family with the people we think of as Palestinian today, even if they may be descended from the inhabitants of those lands 1800 years ago. Isn't that like saying St Patrick was English because he was (possibly) born in southern mainland Britain.听
Good point Arty Macclench.
As an aside, St Patrick (like Alfred the Great) is also venerated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox church. Ethnicity should be and is immaterial, surely it is a person's (past and present) deeds that count? -
Message 30
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Friday, 29th April 2011
As an aside, St Patrick (like Alfred the Great) is also venerated as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox church. Ethnicity should be and is immaterial, surely it is a person's (past and present) deeds that count? 听
Quite. St Helier, patron of Jersey, admittedly took up residence martyred in the Island (by those pesky Saxons!) but was originally from what is now Belgium.
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