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The Cult of Henry VI
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Monday, 28th March 2011
Henry VI had no fewer than 23 (IIRC) miracles attributed to him after his death, but was never actually canonised. My favourite is the one about the bean that was stuck in a rustic's ear, rendering him deaf, that miraculously popped out after a visit to some dire swampy place in East Anglia. It's interesting to note that HalVI's cult flourished in the reign of Edward the Usurper, despite the latter's opposition to it - what does this tell us about popular sentiment during the period of Yorkist usurpation in England? Also, what would have happened to the cult if the effort to secure HalVI's canonisation hadn't been overtaken by the reformation...?
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Message 2
Posted by NormanRHood (U14656514) on Monday, 4th April 2011
i wanted to read about this later
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Message 3
Posted by greatnovak (U13923414) on Monday, 4th April 2011
Henry VI was probably the worst monarch we have ever had (not really his fault since he was mad). While there was a small movement to make him a saint there is no evidence that anyone took it seriously , Henry VII did support the "cult" but it had few followers.
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Message 4
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Monday, 4th April 2011
Isn't it odd that no one has bothered with this post? It is so very ....interesting! Henry VI who brought civil war, chaos and death and destruction to this land due to his own weakness. And yet it must be aweful being a catotonic schitzophrenic. I suppose that we sympathize with the kings we have most in common with.
So saying if you follow the Traditional line of thought, as you do, then in some obscure corners, the kings I admire such as Charles II was like Ming the Merciless and Richard III killed anyone and everyone who stood in his way! Including Henry VI whom he bludgeoned to death with blows to the head. What a mixture! Isn't Traditional History funny! You must be mad and I must be a killer.There's Traditional History for you! But you will insist upon accepting it....?
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Message 5
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Tuesday, 5th April 2011
Ooooh - look! Minette is STALKING me and making unpleasant insinuations about my state of mind. Now, what was that saying about pots and kettles...?
More on the cult of Henry VI later - for now, I'll just point out that I've never expressed any admiration for said unfortunate monarch, that the consensus that Charles Thumbscrews was a nasty piece of work is hardly in an 'obscure corner' of serious, academic history and that I'm not aware of anyone blaming Richard of Gloucester for the death of Henry VI, who surely stood in Edward IV's way, rather than the hunchback's...
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Message 6
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Tuesday, 5th April 2011
While there was a small movement to make him a saint there is no evidence that anyone took it seriously , Henry VII did support the "cult" but it had few followers.Β
Quite untrue: Henry's cult was widespread and popular right across the social spectrum. It grew so rapidly that the first Yorkist usurper was unable to stop it, while the cunning hunchback actually attempted to adopt it in a sense, having Poor King Hal's corpse and the cult centre transplanted to Windsor. Presumably he did so in order to exert control over the cult, and ensure that it remained politically docile, specialising in miraculous cures rather than championing the Lancastrian claim to the throne.
Henry VI's cult may also explain why Henry the Liberator (VII) didn't promote a cult of the poor, innocent young Princes whom his predecessor had murdered so vilely - such would have distracted from his campaign to have the last legitimate king of England before him canonised...
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Message 7
Posted by mismatched (U14242423) on Wednesday, 6th April 2011
I am sure that I have seen a church, Anglican of course, dedicated to King Charles the Martyr, aka Charles I
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Message 8
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Wednesday, 6th April 2011
I am sure that I have seen a church, Anglican of course, dedicated to King Charles the Martyr, aka Charles IΒ I was pondering this thread last night, and concluded that the cult of Henry VI would probably best be considered in the context of the long tradition of English royal saints (Edmund the Martyr, Edward the Confessor etc). Logocally speaking, I suppost that context ought to be extended forward from Poor King Hal to include Charles the Man of Blood too...
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Message 9
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Wednesday, 6th April 2011
...and that I'm not aware of anyone blaming Richard of Gloucester for the death of Henry VI, who surely stood in Edward IV's way, rather than the hunchback's... Β
The majority of contemporary chroniclers believed Henry VI was murdered by Richard, Duke of Gloucester. Interesting summary here:
Scroll down past the info on the death of Edward of Lancaster. Richard was definitely at the Tower the night Henry VI died there, but even Charles Ross (no friend of Richard) does not believe he was personally responsible for Henry's death. The official line at the time was that the deposed monarch on hearing of the death of his son simply gave up the ghost and expired from "pure melancholy and displeasure".
Shakespeare, of course, loved all this. He devoted a whole scene (Act V sc vi) of Henry VI Part III to the stabbing of poor mad king by the evil Richard, and then has Harry's ghost make a dramatic appearance in Richard III (Act V sc iii) :
When I was mortal, my anointed body
By thee was punched full of deadly holes
Think on the Tower and dspair and die!
Harry the Sixth bids thee despair and die!
My favourite story is about Harry's Hat. They kept it at St. George's Chapel at Windsor and, for a small and very reasonable fee, you could put it on. Cured migraine apparently. Henry VII made a small fortune out of Henry VI. -
Message 10
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
While there was a small movement to make him a saint there is no evidence that anyone took it seriously. Β
I think people - especially in the North - did take it very seriously.
I've been trying to find out more. There's a chapter in 'The Fifteenth Century Vol. V: Of Mice and Men: Image, Belief and Regulation in Late Medieval England' ed. Linda Clark. The chapter is by Thomas Freeman and is called 'Ut Verus Christi Sequester - John Blacman (sic) and the Cult of Henry VI'. I can't get the link to work, but it's available on line.
There's also a tantalising first page of an article by Leigh Ann Craig on that JStor site that looks so good. My library hasn't got a licence to access it which is a pain. Have you read this, Catigern? It's called 'Royalty, Virtue and Adversity: the Cult of King Henry VI'.
Howls of disbelieving laughter will greet this idea, but as Richard III was known to have been a pious man, is it just possible that he felt it a duty and an obligation to move Henry's body from Chertsey to Windsor? The move was ordered during a very dark time in Richard's life - just a few months after the death of his son. A genuine act of atonement perhaps, rather than just a cynical political ploy? Impossible to tell - just a thought. -
Message 11
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
OK Temp, you've convinced me: Crookback Dick murdered Henry VI as well as Edward V and sundry other innocents...
'Fraid I haven't read that Craig article - my fifteenth century interests are actually mostly military.
I don't think anyone will laugh at you for suggesting Henry's remains were moved as an act of atonement, though the phrase 'guilty conscience' springs to mind... Wasn't Henry's corpse actually unearthed and examined, with the forensics confirming that he had indeed died of severe 'blunt trauma' to the head? -
Message 12
Posted by NormanRHood (U14656514) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
did they have powers? they say a man walked up to longshanks to ask for lower taxes and he fell dead in his presense
was he just he just evil? -
Message 13
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
As far as I know, the only magical power that was ever claimed for *living* English kings was the ability to cure scrofula by touching. The Stuarts, both kings and Jacobite pretenders, maintained this claim up until the 18th Century, but the actual post-revolutionary kings had no time for it. William III agreed to touch a subject who asked for it, but said summat along the lines of 'God grant you better health - and more sense...', while the Georges refused to have owt to do with such rituals. There was some debate in these times as to whether the practice had been introduced to England under Edward the Confessor in the 11th century, or Edward III in the 14th.
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Message 14
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 7th April 2011
<quote>did they have powers? they say a man walked up to longshanks to ask for lower taxes and he fell dead in his presense</quote>
The man more than likely dropped dead from a heart attack, his fright would have been so great. Hardly because of a mortal man's "evil eye".
<quotewas he just he just evil?</quote>
I don't believe there is such a thing as evil. A term over-used to justify what are human weaknesses, failings, flaws and mental illnesses. -
Message 15
Posted by NormanRHood (U14656514) on Friday, 8th April 2011
He also had a reputation for a fierce temper, and he could be intimidating; one story tells of how the Dean of St Paul's, wishing to confront Edward over the high level of taxation in 1295, fell down and died once he was in the king's presence.[204] When Edward of Caernarfon demanded an earldom for his favourite Gaveston, the king erupted in anger and supposedly tore out handsful of his son's hair.[205] Some of his contemporaries considered Edward frightening, particularly in his early days. The Song of Lewes in 1264 described him as a leopard, an animal reg
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Message 16
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 8th April 2011
All monarch's were intimidating, if they weren't they wouldn't have warmed their thrones for very long. Weakness was not respected in a king, as Stephen I has shown us but Edward I, in particular, was possibly more intimidating than most as he was extremely tall in an age when most were short to average height by today's standards.
The temper was a family trait, Henry I and II were both also renowned for the odd rage. Like Edward, it didn't stop them from ruling effectively. -
Message 17
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Friday, 8th April 2011
Catigern,
Mention my name and the gift if infamy will be with you. Oh to be as hated as I am. The gift of the Boards is to look in often and play the game. I haven't. I've often been shocked when people know me, let alone have built up this level of dislike. I "do" history, not social networking. And so you have won!
I've been attempting to ween myself off for ages and Richard III, SST and Andrew Spencer have kept me here. I wanted to be stimulated not preached at.
Nordmann and Islandawn (still makes me think of a small fishing smack - it does! Following in his wake) know best, it all about me! Actually it isn't, it's about History and YES as a member of the Royal Stuart Society I've worshipped with them all over the place, The Banqueting Hall at Whitehall, St Mary le Strand, you name it. King Charles the Martyr, because he was. Ask Neill Fergussson - the reason we did not have a "revolution" in 1848 was due to the revolution of 1642-49. But enough of me and my thoughts. What do I know? Quite a lot really but it doesn't matter. I'm bored and tired of being shouted at. Actually I'm quite nice, well family and friends seem to think so too. As a vicar's daughter to be unkind was the greatest sin. Yet 'm accused of nastiness by Nordmann...Hurling posters off the boards by my spite!
You are weird and very strange but I think you will miss me when I'm gone.
A Northerner who went to Oxford with a chip firmly fixed to his shoulder. Let it drop off. My grandfather went to Oxford in1890 something on a scholarship from Morriston and made a fortune as a charming after dinner speaker. Oxford NEEDS brains and charm. Stop being so flaming insecure. Soon it will be packed full of rich idiots! Incidentally I chose to go to Warwick, Mr Blackwell, dad had been his best man etc., etc., offered me a place I turned down. It doesn't matter I still love the Turf, home of Jude and Annabelle. And I have to write. So who will you fight with now? SST or Andrew Spencer? Or possibly Nordmann and Islandawn?
Will you be bored? I expect so. Minette the Malicsious is about to jump ship. -
Message 18
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Saturday, 9th April 2011
Ye gods, but she must have had a skinfull last night...
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Message 19
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Monday, 11th April 2011
Why do do this? What is the point?
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Message 20
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Monday, 11th April 2011
Why do do this? What is the point?
The inflatable man went into the inflatable school and confronted the inflatable headmaster with a drawing pin. He was told, "you have not only let me down, the school down but yourself down too".
So what is your point? No more "green fairy" coursing through your viens? Go to Christ Church Meadow, get out a punt, watch the ducks, it must be glorious now and there's May Day to look foreward too. Don't take your misery out on me. You have so much to enjoy. If you really are at Oxford doing your M.Phil. You have never clearly said what your dissertation is in nor which college you are at. Why? Incidentally isn't Balliol still considered to be better than Magdelin? I don't really care. I simply wish you would have fun and leave me alone. I'm begining to feel sorry for youand It shouldn't be like this! -
Message 21
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Monday, 11th April 2011
Minette, sweetheart, where on earth do you get the idea that I'm still a student, let alone a lowly MPhil one? It seems that some strange, largely made-up version of me exists in your imagination, and that that's whom you're interacting with on these boards...
Perhaps I should be flattered that I lie at the root of various fantasies of yours, but I'm too concerned for you to take any real pleasure in the fact.
Would you like to talk about the cult of Henry VI? Are you now convinced that it actually existed?
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