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Roman numerals.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
The other night when I was having trouble trying to sleep, I found myself just looking at the clock which has roman numerals… while the clock on my PC has Arabic i.e. 123 etc… yet my watch displays just a series of luminescent dots to mark the passage of time which eventually forced a tired mind to wonder, how would the Romans tell the time… would they have said: one, 1, or l… as in: its I past V… for one minute past five… or X ll Vl for 10 to 6… or X 2 Vl… and how did the kids learn their times tables as in ll x ll = lV… lll x ll = Vl…? How would you go about multiplying MCMLXIV (1964) by XVIII (18) or how would you manage to calculate the square of the hypotenuse… or a perfect right angle using a lll, lV, V. etc.
Imagine the roman games… and the Tannoy calls out for the competitors for the L yards sprint, the DCCCLXXX yards and the lX x lV relay to make your way to the start line, where the first race starts in XVll minutes. How were records struck… time wise… imagine a count down X,lX.llX,lllX,Vl,V,lV,lll,ll,l…Go. Or… did it go ex, one ex, one and one ex, one and one and one ex, vee and one, vee… etc.
I’ve always been in awe of the mathematical accuracy of equations worked out by the geniuses from antiquity… and why did they want to know all that stuff anyway… they were I believe mostly of Greek, Egyptian Turkish or Indian extraction with a few Romans thrown in… but with the complexities of the somewhat cumbersome roman method of numeric’s did it ever hold them back from attaining even greater things mathematically. How for example would pi be expressed… how would a decimal point be included into a calculation, same for percentages… and my pet hate algebra… it must have been a nightmare, and why can’t I find this sort of stuff on line… I wouldn’t have to ask such fool questions here then, much to the annoyance of some… I would imagine.
Just a rambling thought… I’ll pass out again soon. -
Message 2
Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Hi Bandick,
Thank God for the Greeks in Geometry and the Arabs in algebra and the ancient Sumerians and Indians for arithmetic that we are able to do any math at all.
However, people can be ingenious; I remember in my childhood watching shopkeepers from Marwar doing quite complex sums using the tips of their fingers and counting with their fingers. It is indeed delightful! And it seems to be in their genes.
Tas -
Message 3
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
hi Tas… ha!... oh yes, the power of one’s finger tips, and I still use em, the fact I have a nurse in to dress my legs means I don’t wear socks… which greatly increases my mathematical capabilities as I’m able to use my toes as well… was there a symbol for zero in roman numerals…
Actually you have just reminded me of the extremely rapid and complex calculations the Chinese are able and still do on the abacus… I think I saw a demonstration of its speed in comparison to the use of a calculator… the abacus even in the hands of a child won hands down. -
Message 4
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Hi bandick. I was taught how to do this as a aside in my Latin class long, long ago. It's a long winded method but quite fun to do. Can't remember how to divide though.
This explains it better than I can. -
Message 5
Posted by George1507 (U2607963) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
The Romans had names for all the numbers, just like we do. The way they are constructed shows how modern European languages have evolved. Here are some numbers -
1 - unus, una, unum
2 - duo, duae, duo
3 - tres, tres, tria
4 - quattuor
5 - quinque
6 - sex
7 - septem
8 - octo
9 - novem
10 - decem
11 - undecim
12 - duodecim
13 - tredecim
14 - quattuordecim
15 - quindecim
16 - sedecim
17 - septendecim
18 - duodeviginti
19 - undeviginti
20 - viginti
21 - viginti unus
30 - triginta
40 - quadraginta
50 - quinquaginta
So the tannoy announcement for the Under 13 javelin event would have been
adveho toti sub tredecim pueri pro iaculator
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Message 6
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Since "tannoy" is a conflated word derived from "Tantalus's Alloy" the Romans would even have had a phrase for that too - "aes tantuli" (though I doubt it was used much - the power supply for such devices being somewhat scarce and erratic at the time, I believe).
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Message 7
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Look like the Romans have pinched some of the numbers off the Greeks
1 enas mia ena
2 dio
3 treis tria
4 tesseris tessera
5 pende
6 exi
7 efta
8 octo
9 enea
10 deca
11 endeca
12 dodeca
13 decatreis decatria
14 decatesseris decatessera
15 decapende
16 decaexi
17 decaefta
18 decaocto
19 decaenea
20 ikosi
30 trianda
40 saranda
50 peninda
100 ekato -
Message 8
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
But who did the Greeks "pinch" them from?
My Dad was at sea in the 1920s and had to learn a few words (like "juldi-jow" = hurry up) to communicate with the Indian deckhands. He called this language "the Lascari batt" and taught me to count to 100 in it, but now I can only remember the first five numbers :
1 - ek
2. - do
3. - teen
4. - cha
5. - panch
Maybe Tas can give us the gen. -
Message 9
Posted by colinclout (U1717776) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
There wasn't really a symbol for zero in Roman numerals, except for nihilum, which they also would have shortened to 'nil' and means nothing as it does today.
1507George posted the Latin names for the numbers. If you look at eighteen and nineteen, 18 - duodeviginti and 19 - undeviginti, they are literally two-from-twenty and one-from-twenty. But unlike modern French, all the other numbers are standardised.
Because they didn't have a zero, some of the ways they expressed numerical concepts would be confusing. The census this year would be referred to as the census on the eleventh year rather than ten years. -
Message 10
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
They say the Greeks borrowed the names of their numbers from the Phoenicians, though I suspect many can indeed be traced back to more ancient Indo-European stems.
Incidentally, ID, the Romans did inherit their numeric terms from Greeks, but via Etruscan ånd presumably with the southern Italian Greek colonies which long preceded Roman expansion. -
Message 11
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Bandick, when you have done that, you can count your sheep in one of these sets of numbers, depending on where you live. I used to be able to do the Swaledale ones.
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Message 12
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
"But who did the Greeks "pinch" them from?"
Touche Jak, both you and Nordmann are correct, of course. The Greeks did pinch their numbers off the Phoenicians, along with their alphabet too. If a thing is doing it is worth doing well, as me Mum is fond of saying.
So who did the Phoenicians pinch them off then? -
Message 13
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
We still have echoes of the ancient Babylonian & Sumerian number systems - that's what gives us 60 seconds to the minute, 60 minutes to the hour etc. The "Arabic" numerals we use today are basically the "Hindu" numbers, passed on from India , via Persia, to the Arabs and thence to us.
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Message 14
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Follow the ancient trade routes and participants back through antiquity and you'll get your answer.
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Message 15
Posted by hoddles off into the sunset (U14129169) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Surely no one pinched the numbers from anyone else. European languages all evolved (with exception such as Basque, Finnish, Hungarian) from the original Proto-Indo-European language.
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Message 16
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Good lord peeps… there’s certainly a lot to chew over here, thank you for sharing your knowledge… there’s certainly an awful lot more to my question than I’d anticipated.
Ferval… I’ve had a go at that link… methinks I’ll put that aside for a dark and stormy night now me brains gone numb.
Silverjenny… you may find this of interest… Counting sheep, I did.
So much to learn… so little time to do it… should’ve paid more attention at school… should have had more teachers that could inspire and encourage… and fewer that talked at you instead of to you.
I learnt more from one old boy at school on a number of subjects that was employed to stoke the boilers, not from his vast reserves of knowledge, but from the way he got the message across… he was a natural teacher with that certain ability that a lot of our teachers lacked. What a waste, what a shame.
Doesn’t matter how smart you are, or what qualifications you have… if you haven’t got that gift, that quality, you’re not a teacher. -
Message 17
Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Hi Jak,
It is the good old Urdu, the language of the Mughal army camps. the word 'Urdu' means, in Turkish, an army camp. Everything is correct except 'four' should be 'Char' not 'cha'. 'Juldi jow' means 'go quickly,' 'Juldi karo' means 'speed it up' or 'Hurry up'.
When your Dad called it " Lascari batt' he was absolutely correct. 'Lashcar' means ' army' and 'Batt' means 'language' or more closely 'talk.' So 'Lashcari batt' means 'army talk' or 'camp talk.'
Tas -
Message 18
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Thanks, Tas!
I recall "agyarah, barah, terah, chowda" as well (from the deep recesses of memory) but have completely forgotten which numbers they were.
Dad also told me that he had to be very careful on deck, not to let his shadow fall upon the meal the Lascars had prepared for themselves. If that happened, they threw it all overboard, and started again. Strange! Can that be true?
Sorry, we're a long way from Roman numerals. Why does my clock have IIII instead of IV? I'm sure I saw the answer somewhere..... -
Message 19
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
You don't know why IV is unlucky?
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Message 20
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Er, no.
(Horrible feeling I'm going to look stupid here. But...)
Please explain. -
Message 21
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
IIII seems to have been the original Roman practice, later (middle ages or later) displaced by IV. Legend has it that a certain Royal personage claimed "IV" was wrong to reduce the price he was being charged for a new clock. Clocks with "IIII" exist which predate the royal in question, so that's unlikely to be the whole truth.
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Message 22
Posted by hoddles off into the sunset (U14129169) on Friday, 25th March 2011
1-10 in Proto-Indo-European
1 oynos / sem
2 duwo
3 treyes
4 kwetwores
5 penkwe
6 sweks
7 septm
8 okto
9 newn
10 dekm
and in past/present Indo-European languages:
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Message 23
Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Friday, 25th March 2011
Hi Jak,
Your memory is still sharp. Gyarah, Barah, Terah, Chowda, means 11, 12, 13 ,14.
'Bees' is twenty.
Regarding the shadow falling on the food, it is likely from some ancient Hindu ritual, the reason for which is now long forgotten. I imagine those guys must have been of the Brahmin cast, supposedly the highest. They always want to maintain their purity.
There is also the lowest cast, the "Untouchables." Gandhi called them 'Harrijan' or "God's Children" to try to get the high-cast Indians to accept them. Many of them became Catholic Christians; many now live in Canada, a big loss for India, although there have been some Untouchable ministers in the Indian Cabinet and one, Jag Jivan Ram, nearly became Prime Minister. -
Message 24
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 25th March 2011
Tas :
I heard a story on Radio 4 a few months ago about a large number of Dalit who were converting to Buddhism to escape the laws of Varna. -
Message 25
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Friday, 25th March 2011
Thanks for that, Tas!
It's amazing the odd things - never used - that lurk in the memory. I surprised my local shopkeeper (he's from India) by showing-off with my "ek-do-teen" routine this morning.
I don't think I'll ask him about the shadow on the food, though. That's just too strange! -
Message 26
Posted by Tas (U11050591) on Sunday, 27th March 2011
Ur-Lugal,
They prefer to convert to anything to get away from their cast. At one time they used to convert to Islam. Then came the Christian missionaries. They gave them many opportunities mostly in education, as teachers and in health care, as nurses.
Even today I see that Germany has a lot of Indian Nurses, primarily from the Indian State of Kerala, a State with the highest per capita of Learning in India. Vasco da Gamma, who discovered the sea route to India in 1498, landed some where there, I believe in Calicut.
The fleet arrived in Kappad near Calicut, India on 20 May 1498. The King of Calicut, the Saamoothiri (Zamorin), who was at that time staying in his second capital at Ponnani, returned to Calicut on hearing the news of the European fleets's arrival. The navigator was received with traditional hospitality, including a grand procession of at least 3,000 armed Nairs, but an interview with the Zamorin failed to produce any concrete results. The presents that da Gama sent to the Zamorin as gifts from Dom Manuel—four cloaks of scarlet cloth, six hats, four branches of corals, twelve almasares, a box with seven brass vessels, a chest of sugar, two barrels of oil and a cask of honey—were trivial, and failed to impress. While Zamorin's officials wondered at why there was no gold or silver, the Muslim merchants who considered da Gama their rival suggested that the latter was only an ordinary pirate and not a royal ambassador. Vasco da Gama's request for permission to leave a factor behind him in charge of the merchandise he could not sell was turned down by the King, who insisted that da Gama pay customs duty—preferably in gold—like any other trader, which strained the relation between the two. Annoyed by this, da Gama carried a few Nairs and sixteen Mukkuva fishermen off with him by force. Nevertheless, da Gama's expedition was successful beyond all reasonable expectation, bringing in cargo that was worth sixty times the cost of the expedition.Ìý
Some of the World's oldest Christians belong to a sect there. They are believed to have started their Church from almost the time of Jesus because one of Jesus' 12 apostles, St. Thomas, is reputed to have gone there and initiated this Church. I am not aware of the details, but this is what I was told in my Catholic School.
Tas -
Message 27
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 27th March 2011
More conventional and trustworthy research suggests a date approximately six centuries later and the arrival of christianity along existing trade routes. The tradition of Thomas being the founder, and that he availed of spice trade routes, is actually one shared by other small christian sects which have as a common element their placement along these routes when they were opened for christian expansion in the period during the Justinian dynasty's tenure of the Byzantine crown and the accompanying proselytization of Persian peoples (five centuries after Thomas allegedly lived).
The period in question was actually not very long at all either, since within two centuries many of the same routes became economic mainstays of the emergent muslim religion and political hegemony in the region - a factor which contributed to some christian sects' subsequent isolation from the rest of the church and therefore the propensity to embellish their actual origins. -
Message 28
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 29th March 2011
Posted by Nordmann (U3472955) ** on Thursday, 24th March 2011
You don't know why IV is unlucky?
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Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Er, no.
(Horrible feeling I'm going to look stupid here. But...)
Please explain.
Ìý
Eeeek, Jak, just noticed this! Sorry!
I was being facetious - one of the stories is that a Huguenot clockmaker presented a clock to the king on the latter's marriage to Madame Maintenont when he'd heard from a Versailles clerk of the upcoming nuptials. Under bad advice he used IV instead of IIII on the clockface, thinking it the king's preference. Under even worse advice he presented it at court on the fateful day not knowing that in fact the marriage, for several reasons, was strictly private - in fact top secret even - and definitely not one Louis wanted publicised or celebrated in public.
The king had the clockmaker executed for his temerity in gatecrashing his private party, but when asked the charge to be levelled against the clockmaker responded "temps depreciant" rather than admit his real problem with the hapless man and his clock. Shortly afterwards he renounced the Edict of Nantes, and from that day on any protestant clockmaker worth his psalter never dared tempt fate again by "cheapening time". -
Message 29
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Tuesday, 29th March 2011
Thanks, Nordmann.
No, I hadn't heard that one before.
I bet I'll think about that watchmaker every time I wind my hall clock. (Just checked - it has a IIII.)
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