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The Tudors Season 4
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by heatherhassan (U14802294) on Wednesday, 2nd March 2011
Hello all. Please can somebody tell me if the last 4 episodes of The Tudors Season 4 will continue or do we have to wait? I was looking forward to watching 7 of 10 this Saturday 5th March but I can't find it in the viewing schedule. I had hoped all 10 episodes would be aired. Thanks.
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Message 2
Posted by Scriptofacto99 (U3268593) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
Hello Heather,
Saturday 5th March is World Book Night on Â鶹ԼÅÄ 2, therefore The Tudors will resume on the following Saturday on 12th March. -
Message 3
Posted by britney pearson (U14735578) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
Saturday 5th March is World Book Night on Â鶹ԼÅÄ 2,I hope all 10 episodes be aired. -
Message 4
Posted by heatherhassan (U14802294) on Saturday, 5th March 2011
Hello Scriptofacto99. Thank you so much for your reply. I didn't realise it was book night tonight. I am so pleased as I have been looking forward to watching the episodes every week and thought that we may have to wait a few months for the last episodes.
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Message 5
Posted by Scriptofacto99 (U3268593) on Saturday, 5th March 2011
Hello Heather,
You're most welcome!
Details of next Saturday's programme can be viewed on The Tudors' page of the Â鶹ԼÅÄ website:
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Message 6
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Saturday, 5th March 2011
How can they stretch them out? We've lost all historical content!
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Message 7
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Tuesday, 8th March 2011
To be fair, while there are episodes where the truth is stretched, there are times when it's more accurate than a lot of historical movies and dramas out there....
The last episode was about Katherine Parr, and I must admit, thru gnashed teeth, that I learnt something. I watched the episode, poo-pooing scenes where Tom Seymour professed his love for KP, and even that King Hal sent gifts to her when Lord Latimer was still alive. So, I picked up my copy of Alison Weir's 'Henry VIII', and I was surprised to find excerpts in there that supported both of those scenes!
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Message 8
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 9
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Tuesday, 8th March 2011
Why on earth has my post about "The Tudors" been modded?
Was it the reference to Catherine Howard as "Rosa sine Spine"? Can you not cope with something *historical* in Latin?
I am bloody, bloody *furious*. -
Message 10
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Tuesday, 8th March 2011
The mods move in mysterious ways, Temperance! I think they look with suspicion on things in Latin because, not understanding it themselves, they think you are saying something naughty in disguise.
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Message 11
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Wednesday, 9th March 2011
Hi shivfan,
I haven't the heart (or the time) to type out all my message again, but just a quick few lines to say I was in agreement with you - most of the episodes in Series Four of "The Tudors" have been reasonably accurate. How, though, the writers have managed to turn such exciting source material (which they most definitely *have* used) into what has been described as "bejewelled - if compulsive - drivel" is beyond me.
That said, there have been some glaring errors. Where on earth are Cranmer and the Duke of Norfolk? Two *major* players in the drama (especially poor Catherine Howard's) who seem to have disappeared along with Anne Boleyn. Gardiner, the Bishop of Winchester, seems to have been promoted to Archbishop of Canterbury - utter nonsense!
Although it's true that Jane Rochford (George Boleyn's widow) did go mad and was executed along with her mistress, she certainly was not the first to be dispatched. There is no way Catherine would have been expected to place her neck on a block still wet with the blood of her servant! That ruined what should have been a very moving scene - the dignified exit that Catherine really did try to make.(She did *not*, by the way - according to eyewitness accounts - deliver the famous, " Although I die a queen, I would rather die Culpepper's wife" line. Excellent drama, true, but not historically accurate!)
Katherine Parr's story - especially her relationship and later marriage to Thomas Seymour - is one of my favourites. By all accounts KP was a good woman - genuinely kind, loving and compassionate. Let's hope they do her justice in the next few weeks!
Hi raundsgirl,
On calm and sober reflection, I don't think it was the Rosa Sine Spina (I'll try to get the Latin correct this morning!) that was the problem. I did use a slightly naughty word, but it was an Englsih one. It was in connection with Stephen Gardiner. Although he was Bishop of Winchester, Gardiner had a fine London residence - its ruins are still there on the South Bank of the Thames. He was the biggest landlord in the district and he received rents from many properties in Southwark, including the infamous "stews" there. The ladies of the night (that's the euphemism I *should* have used) who worked in the brothels were called Winchester Geese in his honour! -
Message 12
Posted by shivfan (U2435266) on Wednesday, 9th March 2011
Thanks for that, Temperance....
I agree with you about the absence of Cranmer - wasn't he heavily involved in the trial of Catherine Howard? I got the impression that he was happy to get the fifth queen out of the way, but, as you say, he'd been strangely written out of the script in this series. -
Message 13
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Thursday, 10th March 2011
Hi shivfan,
I agree with you about the absence of Cranmer - wasn't he heavily involved in the trial of Catherine Howard? Ìý
Well, not exactly her trial. Catherine was tried in absentia by Parliament and she was condemned by Act of Attainder. But Cranmer certainly wanted her out of the way - she, poor kid, was simply the pawn of the conservative, Catholic faction at Court. That faction was headed by CH's uncle*, Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk, and the crafty Stephen Gardiner. These two had worked long and hard to eliminate Thomas Cromwell - they succeeded in the end, and Cromwell was executed on the very day Henry VIII married the Howard "candidate". But the sexual follies of the young girl whom the Duke and the Bishop had paraded so successfully before the king as a political "honeytrap", gave Cranmer and the Reformers the chance to strike back. It was indeed the Archbishop himself who wrote the letter (left in Henry's private chapel, or closet, at Hampton Court) which detailed the fifth queen's misconduct.
Yet Cranmer - his spiritual side always at war with his political sense - seems to have been genuinely moved by Catherine's distress. He came to pity her with all his heart, and, ironically, tried to save her from death. (He was actually worried she would attempt suicide: after one interrogation session he gave orders to the servants to remove anything with which the young girl could attempt self harm.) He wrote:
"I found her in such lamentation and heaviness as I never saw no creature, so that it would have pitied any man's heart to have looked upon her."
The Archbishop offered Catherine a legal way out: if she would sign a declaration admitting that she and her former lover, Dereham, had made each other a pledge of marriage, her marriage to the king could be annulled and her life would be spared. Catherine refused to sign - either because her Howard family pride kicked in, or perhaps she could not understand the legal point. For whatever reason she steadfastly refused to grasp the lifeline Cranmer offered her: she remained adamant that there had been no pre-contract with anyone. She, Catherine Howard, was Queen of England.
Anne of Cleves summed up the tragedy. Of the girl who had so humiliatingly replaced her as Henry's queen, Anne simply said: "She was too much a child to deny herself any sweet thing she wanted."
Perhaps the last sweet thing this child had desired was death.
*The scriptwriters of "The Tudors" have decided in their wisdom to make Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey, Catherine's uncle. Henry Howard, the reckless and brilliant poet, was in fact her *cousin*. A little detail, but a terribly annoying and quite unnecessary messing about with the facts. -
Message 14
Posted by miss elizabeth (U10895934) on Monday, 14th March 2011
I could have sworn the speech in the last one of Henry rallying his troops, well I'm sure I've heard it before. Another Henry before Agincourt.
And was he really able to mount horses (careful!) and ride into battle?
And the guns! -
Message 15
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Monday, 14th March 2011
And was he really able to mount horses and ride into battle? Ìý
Apparently the real Henry (wearing armour that two slim young men could have got into) had to be hoisted onto his war horse. It was an enormous dapple-grey Dutch stallion, seventeen hands high - an enormous, snorting, ferocious beast, not unlike its master. What a combination - the French must have been terrified!
I thought the muskets were a bit iffy too, but have no idea about guns, so I'm probably wrong.
Nobody took their clothes off this week - that must be a first! I thought there was going to be a post-skirmish you-know-what involving the Duke of Suffolk and that young Joan of Arc type French female, but thankfully we were spared.
Didn't Hugh Latimer look young and handsome for a fifty-six year old?
I absolutely love it all. What will we do when Series Four ends? -
Message 16
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Tuesday, 15th March 2011
I have simply lost the plot. But was there ever a plot? It's gobbly-de-gook. I once gave it a chance, even though the costumes were oh so wrong, those headresses are from Claire's Accessories and NO ONE over 13 wore their hair loose! Unless they were prostitutes and so would NOT be allowed into Court.
Why is the Lady Mary being given such a large role? She had little to do with Court Life at this stage and did not have a heaving bosom, all portraits of her show her buttoned up to the lace collar. She was also extremely ugly and old for her age, little wonder! Stephen Gardener was her creature and Henry held on to Cranmer until the end but he's gone AWOL.
Henry VIII and his "brother-in-law" Charles Brandon look like spring lambs compared to their portraits at this stage, all white hair and ballooning velvet doublets...........It's ridiculous. Even Rhys Myers said in an interview he saw no problem with "his" Henry VIII having an Irish accent. Edward VI has one too now.
I almost gave up after Catherine Howard's execution - as you say SST, it was a dignified, quiet affair and there was NO mention of Culpepper. A queen killed on the block after her "maid"! Where and when will it end please! I recorded the last one and found myself fast forwarding to end the pain of this car crash. For me, the high point are the wonderful candles. So many and wonderfully distracting.
Incidentally - Gardener will attempt to "get" Katherine Parr on her Lutherine ideas after Henry returns from Boulogne. She will panic and make up with Henry just before she is arrested. Henry will (hopefully) die soon and Katherine will escape being murdered by him. No doubt there will be a touching death bed scene with Katherine Parr, Edward, Elizabeth and Mary and then what?
Edward VI - of the Irish accent - will be king but cannot make Lady Jane Grey his heir because she hasn't been born due to the fact that Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk never married Mary Tudor, Henry VIII's beloved little sister because the series didn't write her into it, having combined Margaret and Mary Tudor into one woman!?
In real life Henry VIII had two sisters, Mary and Margaret Tudor. Mary married the French king and upon his death maried Henry's best friend, Charles Brandon, duke of Suffolk. Margaret Tudor married James IV of Scotland (NOT the King of Portugal?) and they had James V of Scotland who married Marie de Guise and they had Mary Queen of Scots! Her second marriage produced the Stewart/Stuart line of Kings. But in the series she died after killing the king of Portugal(?) and had an affair with Charles Brandon her non brother-in-law because there was no younger sister, Mary Tudor to marry. Confused? I am but let us see how they create a Lady Jane Grey! It will be fun!
Perhaps Katherine Parr will have a baby by her nemesis Cardinal Stephen Gardener, not marry Thomas Seymour and they will call it Chealsey or Jordan! Who knows what new thrills "The Tudors" will present us with. I don't care anymore. The candles are pretty though. -
Message 17
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Tuesday, 15th March 2011
So where is Ridley? Haven't seen or heard of him yet!
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Message 18
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Wednesday, 16th March 2011
Perhaps Katherine Parr will have a baby by her nemesis Cardinal Stephen Gardener, not marry Thomas Seymour and they will call it Chealsey or Jordan! Ìý
No, that would be silly.
I think KP will meet Anne Askew and while discussing Katherine's "Lamentations of a Sinner" over a couple of bottles of Chardonnay they will fall in love. KP suggests they flee to Antwerp where they can do some hot gospelling together. Anne agrees and off they go, clutching their copies of the English New Testament.
In Antwerp they meet William Tyndale (he's been dead for ten years, but never mind) and as WT autographs her copy of the NT Anne realises she is not gay after all and that she wants to have Tyndale's baby.
She tells KP and Katherine, heartbroken but resigned, decides to return to London and throw herself on Henry's mercy. He forgives her. Bishop Gardiner is so incensed he deliberately kicks Henry on his bad leg, is sent to the Tower and becomes the first man in England to be executed by firing squad (must show off those lovely new guns again somehow before the series ends).
Thomas Seymour marries Anne of Cleves. -
Message 19
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Wednesday, 16th March 2011
In reply to Minette Minor:
I´ve seen the complete 4th series in January on TV and I must say that I find your comments partly amusing and partly right.
But I recall that it was the King of Portugal, King Henry VIII sister married and after his dead (for he was an old man already) married Charles Brandon.
I won´t tell you more about the current broadcasted series, just that Rhys Meyers don´t look like Henry VIII when he´s going to die in the end as we know Henry VIII from his pictures at that time. Even the portrait, painted by Master Holbein is a depiction of "Rhys Meyers" himself in his costume.
Enjoy the series, or at least the candles.
Thomas -
Message 20
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Wednesday, 23rd March 2011
Apologies SST and ThomasII,
Have only just read your posts and they really did make me laugh out loud! So it isn't just me! Love your plans for Catherine Parr SST. Lords be praised. I've still got Satuday's to watch but when I began got bored started to fast forward, all that stuff about Boulogne and deaths from dysentry???
Love Brandon's new pony tail but can't understand the important (?) Earl of Surrey's mumblings.The Redgrave girl as Catherine Parr looks elegant. Gairdener is spoling for the Smithfield Burnings but oddly hasn't made contact with Lady Mary yet and when will Rhys Myers die???? Soon please.
Does this style of "accessible history" make a point? So silly it has been moved to different and later time slots... It's actually fallen over the edge of "popular history for the people"! Yippee! -
Message 21
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Wednesday, 23rd March 2011
Will these 'history' series come to an end when they run out of Redgraves?
As we have no telly, I am spared the hypertension-inducing spectacle. In any case I much prefer the version that Minette and SST have scripted. I do think you could have done something with Anne of Cleeves, though. Could Edward VI have secretly married Lady Jane Grey? -
Message 22
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Wednesday, 23rd March 2011
I preferred the brilliant 2003 Tudor series (Henry VIII) with Ray Winstone, Helena Bonham-carter, Charles dance and David Suchet et al.
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Message 23
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Wednesday, 23rd March 2011
Lol! Anything goes raundsgirl! There will always be Redgraves that's for sure and Foxes, Wests and other acting dynasties clogging up RADA and the CSSD! A bit close to home my youngest is auditioning for CSSD on Monday! Another friend has got through - at long last - to his 3rd audition for RADA, it's taken ages!
BUT I'm sure SST and I could come up with some rib-tickling, mind boggling yet tasteful "stuff" about the Tudors! Wouldn't take long but it's worrying people may actually believe it to be true!
The still strangely virile Rhys Meyers seemed to like Anne of Cleves and her lusty card playing last time I saw them and no mistake!
What about the Roman Catholic queen Marie de Guise and Protestant Spy Master Walsingham! Damn done in the last Cate Blachette, Elizabeth I Part Two I've been told! Perhaps Lettys Knollis, wife of Leicester can form an association with some tomatoes and a nice slab of Lord Chedder? Would Cardinal Ploughman be jealous? Do we care?
Hereward, I was always confused by Roy's Henry VIII, 2003. He was the king and yet he was the only one who spoke with "cockney accent". Why was this? As a king and all I thought he would have been posher than his courtiers. Was there a reason for this do you think?
Cheers Minette. -
Message 24
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
In reply to Minette Minor:
I see, Season 4 is reaching its end soon, as you´ve mentioned Boulogne and Gardiner.
Posted by Hereword (U14549396) on Wednesday, 23rd March 2011 (12 Hours Ago)
I preferred the brilliant 2003 Tudor series (Henry VIII) with Ray Winstone, Helena Bonham-carter, Charles dance and David Suchet et al.Ìý
That´s the series I´ve seen too and I think it´s quite better than "The Tudors".
Hereward, I was always confused by Roy's Henry VIII, 2003. He was the king and yet he was the only one who spoke with "cockney accent". Why was this? As a king and all I thought he would have been posher than his courtiers.Ìý
At least he looked like Henry VIII more adequat than Rhys-Meyers. I don´t mind his accent, for what is known about that concerning the real King Henry VIII in his lifetime?
In the same way you could argue about the conversations in all four seasons of "The Tudors". Aside from what is taken from historical chronicles, the producers had a wide field to interprete and set up conversations as they liked, of course in the historical terms.
So, as you´re Welsh, what´s the difference between Welsh and Irish people in speaking the English language. To me they both sound a bit similar, so to say to the melody of their speaking.
I would be interested in your opinion about the portrait, depicting Rhys-Meyers as Henry VIII.
Regards,
Thomas -
Message 25
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
In reply to Minette Minor:
I see, Season 4 is reaching its end soon, as you´ve mentioned Boulogne and Gardiner.
Posted by Hereword (U14549396) on Wednesday, 23rd March 2011 (12 Hours Ago)
I preferred the brilliant 2003 Tudor series (Henry VIII) with Ray Winstone, Helena Bonham-carter, Charles dance and David Suchet et al.Ìý
That´s the series I´ve seen too and I think it´s quite better than "The Tudors".
Hereward, I was always confused by Roy's Henry VIII, 2003. He was the king and yet he was the only one who spoke with "cockney accent". Why was this? As a king and all I thought he would have been posher than his courtiers.Ìý
At least he looked like Henry VIII more adequat than Rhys-Meyers. I don´t mind his accent, for what is known about that concerning the real King Henry VIII in his lifetime?
In the same way you could argue about the conversations in all four seasons of "The Tudors". Aside from what is taken from historical chronicles, the producers had a wide field to interprete and set up conversations as they liked, of course in the historical terms.
So, as you´re Welsh, what´s the difference between Welsh and Irish people in speaking the English language. To me they both sound a bit similar, so to say to the melody of their speaking.
I would be interested in your opinion about the portrait, depicting Rhys-Meyers as Henry VIII.
Regards,
°Õ³ó´Ç³¾²¹²õÌý I haven't seen any of 'The Tudors' and I wonder how it compares with the 1970 series, 'Six Wives of Henry the Eighth' with Keith Michell. I loved it but from a standpoint of pretty much total ignorance of the history. I'm toying with buying the DVD but would it live up to my recollection? -
Message 26
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Hi ferval,
I haven´t seen the series made in the 1970s, you´ve mentioned. There are several films made about Henry VIII through decades.
As for "The Tudor" seasons, I would just say that if you like to watch film series, made up upon historical background, with some historical correctness, but also wich much inaccuracies, added by - let us say "sex, betrayal, religious fanantism, traitors, adulterers, conspiracy, war and slaughter", well than this would be recommended.
This series had been put to much critics, not because of the terms I´ve mentioned aforesaid, but because of the inaccuracies in the time lines when, where and how things happened. Some scenes are still arguable whether they´d happened at all, as to point out to the example Minette mentioned concerning Henry VIII visiting his divorced wife Anna, playing cards and afterwards having intercourse with her. That´s more speculative, for it has been told that he never touched her, neither before marriage, while married to her and odd enough after divorce.
Henry VIII himself, played by Rhys-Meyers, looks through the whole seasons nearly not getting that older and fat as Henry VIII was. The whole seasons are more like a show, even when the women looked more pritty, they were more depicted as - depending on each role - more or less silly. Some of them as if they can´t wait to get in bed with Henry. This might be the truth in his younger years, but it became more sceptical during the other seasons when he was getting older.
I think that the other series with Ray Winstone and Helena Bonham Carter are better and have more focus on the historical events, although just made of four parts, the whole story is in compare to the four "The Tudor" seasons, much shorter.
Ray Winstone is from his size and appearance in that series more likely to Henry VIII. Helena Bonham Carter is playing Anne Bolyne in far better and more clever role. The same can be said about the other actresses, playing Henry´s wifes.
One is for sure, the more entertainment you´ll have with "The Tudors" seasons, and if you don´t bother with Rhys-Meyers Irish accent, as Minette does, you may enjoy that series.
I´ve bought the series with Bonham Carter, but I wouldn´t buy "The Tudors" seasons, due its historical inaccuracies.
Regards,
Thomas -
Message 27
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Hi Thomas,
Have a look on youtube, there's bound to be exerts there. Keith Mitchell certainly seems to have been a much more realistic Henry, I remember that by the end he was old, fat, and hardly able to walk. I hope someone can comment on how accurate it was, being from the days when the Â鶹ԼÅÄ put a lot of effort into its historical dramas I would think it would be fairly close to what was then the current general understanding. -
Message 28
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
I'm toying with buying the DVD but would it live up to my recollection?
Ìý
I think it would, ferval. The historical interpretation was pretty much in keeping with conventional wisdom concerning the events at the time (ie. accurate) and the acting was excellent. Compared to the same story now being retold as "Dynasty in Codpieces" it was a masterpiece. -
Message 29
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
The historical interpretation was pretty much in keeping with conventional wisdom concerning the events at the time (ie. accurate) and the acting was excellent.Ìý
So what´s all the fuss the people made on other websites upon this and that wasn´t accurate, Nordmann?
One has to have a wide knowledge about the history of Henry VIII to point out these inaccuracies. The critics there doesn´t appeared to be on the wrong track. -
Message 30
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
The Keith Michell series wasn't entirely accurate, if that's what you mean. But the liberties taken with the actual events were by and large forgivable and understandable given the requirement to constrain the narrative within the format of the series (a wife a week).
The Tudors, on the other hand, is an insult to the intelligence of the viewer - though seemingly an insult most viewers are prepared to overlook while they enjoy witnessing a good ol' bodice stripper. -
Message 31
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Sorry Nordmann,
I haven´t noticed that you were referring to the series made in the 1970s. I rather took your post as to be about "The Tudors".
I haven´t seen the Keith Michell series and therefore wouldn´t say anything about that.
It´s just a bit odd that "The Tudors" is on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ History homepage and a Â鶹ԼÅÄ production. I´m more accustomed to serious Â鶹ԼÅÄ productions, well aside from comedy. -
Message 32
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
... or bodice ripper, even. Freud is working overtime in his slip.
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Message 33
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
The Â鶹ԼÅÄ has exclusive broadcasting rights in the UK, Thomas, but they had nothing to do with its production, I don't think.
As far as I know it was concocted by production companies based in Ireland, the USA and Canada, and I don't think historical resaerch featured high on their budgetary agenda. Knocking up something for Showtime viewers seems to have been the principal criteria. -
Message 34
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Thanks for that Nordmann.
Irish productions, what I can tell from the films I have, are also most accurate. But when the Americans take up the direction and production, well one knows where this went to.
The Tudors Season 4 was broadcasted on the German free TV (private Channel) in January this year. The film music sounds good, which is one of the positive things. For it has been syncronised into German, I can´t say something about Rhys-Meyers Irish accent. But I´ve seen a couple of films with him and besides the "Michael Collins" film, in the other films he hasn´t spoken with that accent. In all, I regard him as an good actor and I think that he has a career ahead.
I was always disturbed by the Spanish accent of the German ambassador to Henry´s court. But they did well with the Rhineland accent of Princess Anna von Kleve, although this doesn´t come through in the English version of that series. -
Message 35
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Irish productions, what I can tell from the films I have, are also most accurate.
Ìý
Irish input seems to have been confined to providing the locations, sets and technicians.
Complaining about any character's accent in The Tudors is a bit like pointing out that Sean Connery's Scottish drawl ruined "Darby O'Gill and the Little People" as a realistic portrayal of Ireland in the years just prior to independence. -
Message 36
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Thursday, 24th March 2011
Irish input seems to have been confined to providing the locations, sets and technicians.Ìý
Yes, I see it that way too, for it´s the landscape that attracts producers to make their films in Ireland.
Complaining about any character's accent in The Tudors is a bit like pointing out that Sean Connery's Scottish drawl ruined "Darby O'Gill and the Little People" as a realistic portrayal of Ireland in the years just prior to independence.Ìý
Well said and I remember that one poster on these boards, years ago complained about the "unfitting accent" of Liam Niesson in his role of Michael Collins that his accent wasn´t right for the Cork area. This doesn´t bothered me at all.
There has been and there still are plenty good actors and actresses from Ireland, but more admired upon their acting than upon their Irish heritage. -
Message 37
Posted by Minette Minor (U14272111) on Saturday, 26th March 2011
I'm with Nordmann!
Didn't think that would ever happen, neither did he!
But a Welsh accent is far different to that of the Scots and Northern Irish, they were exported there during the c16th. Southern Irish is totally diffrerent again. BUT as Welsh is a day to day spoken language, not an accent, it's hard to tell Welsh speakers from those who speak English well like REAL French or Spanish speakers etc.No accent!.I spoke like my parents' at home and like my school friends outside, adopting another when I thought fit. It worried my parents! Survival! Now that I'm old I speak like me and hope to be understood by all. Accents can't be disguised. Wouldn't Henry VIII have done the same with a "posh" bit thrown in? I'm confused.
What has happened to the levity? But have just deleted "the Tudors" out of boredom, all of ours! -
Message 38
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Sunday, 27th March 2011
"But a Welsh accent is far different to that of the Scots and Northern Irish, they were exported there during the c16th. Southern Irish is totally diffrerent again. BUT as Welsh is a day to day spoken language, not an accent, it's hard to tell Welsh speakers from those who speak English well like REAL French or Spanish speakers etc.No accent!."
I don't understand what you are saying here Minette. On the one hand you say that the Welsh have a different accent to the Irish and Scottish, which is true of course. But on the other hand you are saying the Welsh have no accent?
But there is always an accent, whether the Welsh are speaking Welsh or English there is still a Welsh accent, it just varies in degree. -
Message 39
Posted by miss elizabeth (U10895934) on Sunday, 27th March 2011
Of course we (Welsh) have an accent, even if we've lived in England a long time.
But... I thought they addressed the King/Queen as "Your Grace" and the Majesty bit only came in a lot later.
Am I correct? -
Message 40
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Monday, 28th March 2011
According to the chronicler Thomas Walsingham Richard II liked to be addressed as "Majesty". There's also a letter to Henry VI which uses the term.
I think it was Henry VIII (or rather Wolsey - one of his more successful ideas) who made "Majesty" official - somewhere around 1517/19 I believe - I'll have to look it up. The terms "Majesty", "Grace" and "Highness" were all used during Henry's reign. There is an extremely diplomatic letter from Katherine Parr to the king when he was in Bolougne which uses the expression tactfully and very deliberately.
Just watched Saturday's episode - it wasn't too bad - Anne Askew was very good and the torture scenes were brutally accurate - as was the complaint to Henry by the Governor of the Tower. I think Simon Ward is excellent as the poisonous Gardiner.
The old Â鶹ԼÅÄ production of Henry VIII is absloutely brilliant. Well worth buying, ferval. Keith Michell will always be Henry for me - utterly convincing as both the athletic idealistic 18-year-old *and* the bloated, cunning monster of the later years. Bernard Hepton also gives a superb performance as Cranmer . The wives are all good too - Angela Pleasance as Catherine Howard being perhaps the only shaky interpretation.
Henry O'Tudor's Irish accent *is* getting very distracting, as is the odd huskiness of his voice.
I am getting more and more confused by all the upholstery - all those plush, comfy chairs which look like something Harrods would flog. Surely not accurate? -
Message 41
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Monday, 28th March 2011
In reply to Minette Minor:
I wasn´t referring to the Welsh language - as part of the Gealic speaking people - in my previous post, Minette. I was just referring to what is also called "slang" by people speaking English from various parts of the UK.
I´ve a dictionary about with the title "Slanguage" of the Irish speaking English. This referrs to the pronounciation and also spelling of English words by them. It´s no dictionary of Irish - English.
Wouldn't Henry VIII have done the same with a "posh" bit thrown in? I'm confused.Ìý
I don´t know. I rather think that he used a "posh" language in writing, maybe also in court when speaking to visitors, but I wouldn´t think of this in a way as the later aristocratcs, merely in the 18th and 19th century spoke like with a "pain in the ...". -
Message 42
Posted by miss elizabeth (U10895934) on Tuesday, 29th March 2011
Temperance, I too thought Angela Pleasance miscast. (More like an Anne of Cleves perhaps?)
However I loved Keith Michel. (Lynn Frederick played Katherine so much better, can't think what series that was). -
Message 43
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 29th March 2011
Hi miss elizabeth
Lynn Frederick played opposite Keith Michel in the 1972 film which was adapted from the earlier Â鶹ԼÅÄ series (but for dome strange reason which had an alternative title "Henry VIII and his Six Wives" - sounds like a bad 60s pop group).
Some decent pirate has uploaded her bits to You Tube - her bits in the film, I mean of course!
-
Message 44
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Monday, 4th April 2011
I have just sat through the very last episode. What utter, utter garbage! I'm too depressed even to try to make a joke about the ghosts.
That white stallion galloping into the fiery sunset! Those Holbein portraits of Jonathan Rhys Meyers ("Do it again Master Holbein!")! The King's Touch (didn't work) for sweaty Brandon! The flashbacks to young Henry in his black biking leathers!
Oh dear God, it was *dreadful*. Like poor, bewildered Holbein I am left open-mouthed and fearful, especially when I read comments (from another board) like this:
Totally brilliant! I have watched all 4 series. Lets remember this is not a documentary, if you want fact you should watch the history channel. This was drama at its very best. True - it was a bit graphic in places but for me this just added depth and realism. After all it was a very cruel and barbaric time - I found the acting believable from all the cast but from Henry Cavill and Jonathon Meyer I thought it was superb.
Very well done to the Â鶹ԼÅÄ - please bring us more dramas like this one. Ìý
Please don't.
True, there were valiant attempts by some of the actors - notably those playing Catherine of Aragon, Thomas More, Eustace Chapuys, Bishop Gardiner and Anne Askew (plus Peter O'Toole's wonderful Pope Paul III) - to make the best of a very poor script, but overall what a terrible disappointment it's been.
Showtime are doing The Borgias next. Thank heavens they're leaving the Plantagenets alone. -
Message 45
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Monday, 4th April 2011
The Borgias make sense Temp, lots more steamy and scandalous stuff plus poisoning into the bargain. The poor old Plantagents were tame by comparison.
Imagine what they will do with the Italian lot! -
Message 46
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Monday, 4th April 2011
That white stallion galloping into the fiery sunset! Those Holbein portraits of Jonathan Rhys Meyers ("Do it again Master Holbein!")! The King's Touch (didn't work) for sweaty Brandon! The flashbacks to young Henry in his black biking leathers!Ìý
As the other poster said:
This was drama...Ìý
I would replace "at its very best" by "at its very pathetic".
But Jonathan Rhys-Meyers portrait as King Henry VIII, to me it´s still good for a.
I'm too depressed even to try to make a joke about the ghosts.Ìý
Besides the way these scenes were depicted, I wouldn´t doubt that in his last hours, Henry VIII might had some "strange visits" in his mind from the past.
I´ve learned long ago to not take "historical films" as too serious and use documentaries for getting the facts. -
Message 47
Posted by Thomas_II (U14690627) on Monday, 4th April 2011
Hi islanddawn,
Most American made historical films earn - besides that lots of money - much critics upon their inwoved "made up stories".
I´ve - just to point to another example - an HBO production about Churchill at War ("Into the Storm") and I think it´s not so bad, after all. Maybe better than the film made by the same company about Churchill´s widerness years "The Gathering Storm". But they can´t match with Â鶹ԼÅÄ productions in its quality.
I just hope for Jonathan Rhys-Meyers, that he will be soon get some better roles to overcome the Henry VIII seasons and escaping to be most remembered upon that role.
Regards,
Thomas -
Message 48
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 4th April 2011
Did they ever find out whodunnit? Was it the Butlers again?
-
Message 49
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Monday, 4th April 2011
The poor old Plantagents were tame by comparison.Ìý
Just noticed the above typo, Plantagenets of course.
Planta-a-gents has interesting possibilities though..... -
Message 50
Posted by miss elizabeth (U10895934) on Tuesday, 5th April 2011
I seem to remember a series The Borgias, some time ago. Some fat Italian bloke calling out "I am the Popa....". Dreadful.
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