History HubΒ permalink
Signal flags.
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Β
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 8th February 2011
This came up in conversation. (beats talking sport) The use of signal flags on ships, and when did it start. I know that Drake flew a signal flag (general Chase) when chasing the Amada , but how far back does the use of certain flags to indicate different things go?
-
Message 2
Posted by MB (U177470) on Tuesday, 8th February 2011
According to "SIGNAL! A History of Signalling in the Royal Navy", the first recorded use of a flag in the English seas is in the Bayeux tapestry.
A blue bordered white banner with a gold cross is thought to be a "flag of command" on the ship carrying William. -
Message 3
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Tuesday, 8th February 2011
Thanks for that. It does seem reasonable that once men took to the water to fight, someone would come up with a way of signalling to other ships so that (As you say in this case William) other ships would know who commanded.
-
Message 4
Posted by Nielsen3 (U14417619) on Tuesday, 8th February 2011
Not being quite certain, but I seem to remember - from Asterix! - that Roman galleys showed 'signs of command' as well.
- With tongue firmly in cheek, one might suggest a fasces from a bucket, as a preamble to the saying, 'Keep the old aspidistra flying'?
I'd perhaps better return to prop up the Bar, whilst standing. -
Message 5
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Tuesday, 8th February 2011
Certaainly signal flags are old, but it wasn't until Lord Howe's book (?late C18th) that they had anything boyond a locally agreed significance, as far as my reading goes.
-
Message 6
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Tuesday, 8th February 2011
Andrew Gordon in "The Rules of the Game" (excellent book) gives 1790 as the year of widespread adoption of the signaling system of Howe and Kempenfelt, and 1799 as the year when an official signaling manual was adopted.
But if I read him correctly, the "Fighting Instructions" of the fleet had contained flag signals since Tudor times. Howe systematized them by assembling flags into a system of numerical codes, and listing the codes with the messages they were intended to convey. That greatly increased the number of possible signals. A few years later Popham added a system for assembling messages by flags representing words or individual letters. -
Message 7
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Wednesday, 9th February 2011
I would imagine that before that it would have been a simple thing. Red flage meaning one thing, Black another and so on. Strangely the General Chase signal used by Drake was three flags in a set order.
-
Message 8
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 9th February 2011
Only a 2 or 3 flags had set meanings before the adoption of the code books - red flag for explosives, yellow for fever on board, white on blue for "ready to go to sea". Individual Flag Officers decided on and promulgated signals for their commands, so the same flag group could and did mean different things in different places and at different times.
-
Message 9
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Wednesday, 9th February 2011
In my seafaring days, on entering a port from a foreign country we flew a yellow flag, denoting the letter Q for βquarantine.β When flown with another flag, it indicates disease on board; when flown alone, it indicates the absence of disease and signifies a request for customs clearance or free pratiqueβ¦
-
Message 10
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Thursday, 10th February 2011
Red flags seem to have had another significance.
They were hoisted on ships in 1797, as a proclamation by their crews - during the mutinies at Spithead and the Nore. -
Message 11
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 10th February 2011
Again, i assume as most sailors in the late 70s could not read, the duty of both reading the incoming message via the book an setting the outgoing message via the same book, would fall to either the mid shipmen or junior officers. Again I would assume that readfing signal flags would be part of a Midshipmans examination before his promotion.
amazing where these threads go to. -
Message 12
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 10th February 2011
The red flag was, and remains, a pirate flag. It proclaims that no quarter will be sought or given, as opposed to the black flag - also a pirate flag, rarely with the skull & crossbones of the popular conception of the "Jolly Roger". The mutineers wanted to sail under the Red Flag when the HSF came to surrender in 1918, but were persuaded not to, as the Grand Fleet would have been fully entitled to open fire on them.
Signal duties in the Georgian Navy were shared between a nominated Signal Lieutenant, Midshipmen, and the Master's Mates, who, as Warrant rather than Commissioned officers, shared the Gunroom with the Snotties. -
Message 13
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Thursday, 10th February 2011
"Snotties" - I'd forgotten that one. Has it cropped up on the 'Niknames' thread over on Wars & Conflicts?
Does it mean "Midshipmen"? Or... -
Message 14
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 10th February 2011
Midshipmen indeed. Supposedly the cuff buttons on their uniforms wre instituted to stop them wiping their noses on their sleeves.
-
Message 15
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 10th February 2011
No that was the reason they were put on CPOs sleeves.
-
Message 16
Posted by WarsawPact (U1831709) on Thursday, 10th February 2011
Theseus was supposed to fly a white flag from his ship on his return from killing the Minotaur, to let his father know he was still alive.
For some reason, he flew a black flag (meaning Theseus had died) so his father threw himself off a cliff before the ship docked.
Don't you just hate it when that happens... -
Message 17
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Thursday, 10th February 2011
Buttons on the cuffs to stop them wiping their noses on their sleeves?
Wasn't it Frederick the Great who started that? I think I saw this among the strange facts (etc) in the 'Adventure' comic, long ago. -
Message 18
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 10th February 2011
Actually he was supposed to change the black sails for white ones, rather than just fly a flag, in the version we read.
There was also a habit of using a "wheft" - a flag or more often a pedant, with a knot tied in it, to emphasise or modify the significance of a signal. -
Message 19
Posted by MB (U177470) on Friday, 11th February 2011
I posted a message in the Friday, 26th November 2010 "Friday Quiz" about a brooch made up of RN signal flags.
MB -
Message 20
Posted by White Camry (U2321601) on Friday, 11th February 2011
In the days of sail, outlier (if that's the term) frigates were needed to hoist copies of the admiral's signals to the fleet since three-masted ships were very difficult to see through for those who were two ships or more behind the flagship.
-
Message 21
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 11th February 2011
Well, Admiral Duncan turned that to his advantage. At the height of the Nore mutiny, he had only his own flagship and one frigate to blockade the Dutch fleet. Stationing one as an apparent "repeater" for signals from the other to a fleet ostensibly over the horizon, he concealed the lack of any serious force from the enemy.
Conversely, HMS Lion's signals were notoriously diifcult to read, as they were frequently obscured by smoke. Failure to ensure that one of the other Battlecruisers was repeating them to Evan-Thomas' flagship lead to the 5th BS failing to follow when the BCs turned to begin the "run South" phase of the Battle of Jutland. If they had been properly in company, who knows what effect it might have had. In fact, Beatty's signalling - on that day and others - was .......... hmm. -
Message 22
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Friday, 11th February 2011
It is a bit more complex than that. There was an arrangement for a battlecruiser to repeat the signals to Evan-Thomas; HMS Tiger was supposed to do so by searchlight, as it was the ship closest to the 5th BS in the original formation. But when Beatty turned his battlecruisers towards the enemy, Tiger no longer was the closest ship, and therefore it assumed that it no longer had to repeat.
That said, the standing orders of RN units, either battleships or battlecruisers, did including some common sense thinking about the difficulties of using flag signals in wartime, and it was absurd for Evan-Thomas to continue on a course directly away from his commanding officer, merely because his officers had not been able to read the flag signals. This is not hindsight, as the captain of HMS Barham certainly thought so too.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Β to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ iD
ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ navigation
ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ links
ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ Β© 2014 The ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.