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scaffolding in history
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Message 1.Ģż
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Thursday, 6th January 2011
Shrouding every new building under construction is a complex web of scaffolding. Some countries in Asia still use large amounts of bamboo; itās very strong and versatile.
We canāt grow the stuffā¦ so what did we use for scaffolding in history.
Itās also a specialist job now, get caught on a building site even looking like youāre going to move one piece and youāll be barred from the site by Mr Elf ānā Safety. There have been some dreadful accidents.
Think of the cathedral builders, amazing stone masonsā¦ but they didnāt get up there on sky hooks.
Did they have to supply their ownā¦?
Sir Christopher Wren had a mass of scaffolding screening St. Pauls when it was under constructionā¦ to hide it from public viewā¦ some job now, then it must have been an enormous undertaking.
Where did the poles come from? We hear of woodland turned over to coppicing for charcoal makingā¦ essential in the early days of the industrial revolution, and also to heat homes and to cook.
I understand the rudiments of coppicingā¦ a sustainable supply of wood for years in a well managed coppiceā¦ where the main root stock last for hundreds maybe a even thousands years.
What sort of woods was best suited for scaffolding, how was it supplied, were there special scaffoldersā¦ and also you need rope.
Steel scaffolding tube seems to have come on the scene in about the 1920āsā¦ before that, it must have been timber. Iāve never seen any old photos with wooden scaffolding in the backgroundā¦ I suppose itās not very photogenicā¦ Iāve Googled itā¦ and apart from advertisingā¦ thereās nothingā¦ anyone got any info on the subjectā¦ I think its importance had been overlooked.
µž²¹²Ō»å¾±³¦°ģā¦ -
Message 2
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Thursday, 6th January 2011
Bandick, interesting subject.
I seem to recall that Salisbury[?] Cathedral has the original scaffolding within the spire still. -
Message 3
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Thursday, 6th January 2011
Itās only a few miles up the road to meā¦ over the years Iāve been there many times, but it was only fairly recently that I discovered you can go on a tour so far up inside the spire. Shame that, as I canāt climb any more.
But yes I believe they still have the tread wheel used for hoisting material up through the stagings. Iād love to see it.
regards -
Message 4
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Thursday, 6th January 2011
bandick
There is was both "Coppicing" and "pollarding".. and I cannot remember now which one was which...
All I know is that a strong feature of my childhood in Oxford was the prevalance of stumpy willow trees that were all along the ditches and small streams. They were all cut off at about ten feet off the ground, and then sprouted new growth. For us boys they were a popular source of the right kind of bendy branches that we needed to make our bows. They were no doubt a popular resource for willow for basket weaving, hurdles and the like, as well as things like cricket bats where a certian amount of springyness was an asset.
But the willow was rarely straight and stable enough for our arrows. For these hazelnut was better. The Hazel was often cut right down to the ground so that the new growth was much more like a small trunk. I think that this was "pollarding" and it was a way to encourage trees to produce long and straight timbers of a strength compatible with the stress and torque that might be produced by human muscle power, the kind of thing needed for many jobs- before the terrible Forestry Commission acres of pine.
But to my shame I am aware that people like my old friend colleague David, a master carpenter joiner trained before the Second World War had a much more intimate knowledge of what you would use different woods for than I have. I have a feeling that the Ash was a popular tree for pollarding.
Cass -
Message 5
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Thursday, 6th January 2011
Hi Cassā¦
Coppicing is when the wood is cut right back to the groundā¦ some say the tree never dies, Iāve not been around long enough to know.
Pollarding is when the trunk is left to grow, maybe eight to ten feet and then cut back. Often seen in suburban streets in avenuesā¦ itās surprising how quickly it grows.
For some reason I think of door mice when I think of pollardingā¦ donāt know if thereās some connection.
I know of an old disused iron works in a river gorgeā¦ itās a fascinating historical site, and easy to work out what went whereā¦ the furnacesā¦ the waterwheels etc. itās much overgrown, maybe that adds to the attraction. But on the hills above the gorge thereās ancient ash coppices huge trees now, but the iron works made the finest agricultural cutting blades and I suspect the woodland was used to make the handles. Ash being second to hickory in tool handles etc.
regards -
Message 6
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Thursday, 6th January 2011
bandick
Thanks for that- obviously I got them the wrong way round.. Interestingly where I live we still have fragments of the old Great Northwood around us- one bit a protected bird sanctuary 60 yards down the road which is a dead end.. Less than a mile a way West Norwood was originally a charcoal burners settlement in the midst of the wood, and the whole region produced the charcoal that fired London and its trades and industries for centuries.. And yet walking up to "The Rookery" and looking out across South London I am always amazed- especially at verdant times of the year- at just how many trees there still are, when wilder parts of Britain seem by comparison to be naked.
I think that the answer is that possibly even before William I created "forests" as special places, that ancient British veneration for the Green Man and trees had created a tradition of respecting the life of our trees. And certainly the use of the open woodland during The Middle Ages seems to have been carefully managed. Villagers were only entitled to use as firewood what they could get "by hook or by crook"- just using the shepherds crook to snap off dead branches and perhaps using a hook (Oxfordshire sickle= fagging hook) for a bit of pruning that just encouraged healty growth.
But going back to the great cathedrals and the scaffolding, the skilled stoneworkers who did the important building work were Masons who had the unique privilege of being Free- Hence eventually Freemasons.. In those feudal times they were tied to no place and no lord, and moved around throughout Europe wherever their skills were required. So it is an interesting question to speculate whether they might have been able to be involved in the coppicing that would have been necessary to produce the scaffolding that was required. What we do know is that these buildings seem to have almost grown organically and often took 50-100 years or more. It is not impossible that in fact part of the preparatory work that was involved in clearing and preparing the building site, was also a time to start coppicing likely trees that would produce timber-scaffolding that would grow as the building gradually grew.
Some of this technology, like much of the workaday reality of the period, is recorded in pictures that are put in to illustrate texts- even Biblical ones. I suppose a monk copying a Biblical passage about the building, or rebuilding of the Temple at Jerusalem, might have used the building technology of his own time.
But of course castles were built tall too, as were siege engines and scaling towers.. Was not cedar poles one of the great trading goods of the Ancient Greeks? Masts and oars etc
Cass -
Message 7
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Friday, 7th January 2011
Another night lost in and around the depths of knowledge available through googlingā¦ god itās so time consuming with so much to lead you astray. I found a very interesting site:
*In 1086 only about 15% of England was woodland or wood-pasture, 35% was arable, 30% pasture, 1% hay meadow and the remaining 20% was mountain, moor, heath, fen or urban land. The Domesday landscape was more like modern day France than the untamed woodland of folklore. Nearly all woods were highly managed, as coppices or wood-pastures.*
Interestingā¦ but still very little information on scaffolding:
*The produce of English woodlands was mainly underwood for fuel and other uses, with small oaks used for domestic building. Typical medieval timber-framed houses were built mainly of oaks less than 18″ diameter. Large timbers were in short supply, and were reserved for the great ecclesiastical buildings. The builders of Ely Cathedral in the 13th century had to use smaller roof timbers than planned, and the pine poles for the scaffolding were imported from Norway. Thin oak boards or wainscot for domestic building were imported from Central Europe.*
I find the above passage quite enlighteningā¦ and itās the only reference to scaffolding I could find. I know Ely well; I have friends living in an unusual village just a stoneās throw away. I love the cathedralā¦ a pretty amazing piece of stonework, but now made even more interesting with the knowing that cargoes of pine poles were being imported from Norwayā¦ in the 13th century.
Itās rather odd that this question of scaffolding seems to have left scant evidence on what must have been a vital part of our building heritageā¦ itās been almost āairbrushedā out of history. I suppose mention history, and scaffold in the same sentenceā¦ and oneās mind jumps to a hanging, or a beheadingā¦ or even regicide, and thatās far more interesting. -
Message 8
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Friday, 7th January 2011
bandick
I understand from an interview that Ken Follett became fascinated with the whole question of Medieval building when researching "The Pillars of the Earth".
He might describe the scaffolding.
Cass -
Message 9
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Friday, 7th January 2011
Hi Bandick, just a thought, you might get some more information by searching for 'medieval putlogs'. They're the holes used to secure the scaffolding to the walls and are visible on lots of buildings, sometimes left open and sometimes plugged with wood. That might lead you to some discussion of scaffolding techniques, particularly if you look under google scholar.
I found one in a reused stone in a blocked doorway in an 18th c wall recently so was able to identify the stone as having come from a demolished 13th c laigh castle close by.
good hunting1
ferval -
Message 10
Posted by Simon de Montfort (U14278627) on Friday, 7th January 2011
I was once told that one of the reasons why the present York Minster took so long to build (1220 -1472) was that the masons didn't work on the outside of the building in Winter. Considering the rickety wooden scaffolding up to 50m high in inclement Yorkshire weather (like Dec just passed) it seemed a sensible statement. Of course there were wars with the Scots , Black Death & also the Wars of the Roses. It is a wonder that it was ever finshed. Not to mention Henry Vlll's matrimonial problems coming along a little later!
I doubt if it looked such a majestic sight as it does now when teenager Edward lll married his teenage Queen Phillippa there in 1328. Only the transepts and nave had been completed by then. -
Message 11
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 7th January 2011
"I was once told that one of the reasons why the present York Minster took so long to build (1220 -1472) was that the masons didn't work on the outside of the building in Winter. "
No they didn't, the stones and mortar layed during the summer months had to be allowed to dry, set and harden before further weight could be added. During the winter months the stones already layed were also covered with mud and straw to prevent the cold and frost from freezing the mortar and cracking the stones. During the winter months the masons worked on the carving of the stones for the lintels, cornices, columns etc.
Sorry bandick, doesn't help your scaffolding question though. -
Message 12
Posted by Mike Alexander (U1706714) on Friday, 7th January 2011
When I was a kid I had a book called "Masterbuilders of the Middle Ages". I distinctly remember pictures of the builders working on wooden scaffolding. Sadly I have no idea what became of that book!
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Message 13
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Friday, 7th January 2011
This has been a really fascinating thread. I do remember a TV programme about a castle which showed the holes where the scaffolding went.
Casseroleon, I rather think that those (pollarded) willow trees you describe were someone's osier beds. I am lucky enough to remember an elderly man who was a basket maker here, in fact my mother had a laundry basket made by him. The remains of one of his osier beds can still be seen. The willow twigs would be peeled and split then woven into baskets.
The whole landscape was more managed than it is now (except in places) Trees must have been 'harvested' like a crop as well as people gathering their fruits. Rabbits weren't just allowed to run free, they were looked after by the warrener. Everything had its proper season. -
Message 14
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 7th January 2011
Did you see this reference when you were searching, Bandick. Not a lot of help but interesting.
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Message 15
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Friday, 7th January 2011
This book looks useful too.
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Message 16
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Friday, 7th January 2011
raundsgirl
Well the willows were all over the countryside surrounding Oxford, which had many water-meadows and other evidence of Medieval adaptations to the spring flloods..
I well recall my excitement at 16, having just read about strip farming and the practice of ploughing around the strip, throwing the earth inwards to raise a camber, and seeing those low ridges scattered over fields that were by then largely down to grazing. But such low-lying land was covered with ditches around every field, and these ditches were planted with the distinctive willow.
As old pictures of Dutch canals have them lined with trees- and in fact the Aztec used trees to stabilise the sides of their canals- perhaps the willow helped to maintain the ditch system, as well as providing a resource.
Oxford was quite a market City as well as a University and as such probably had a higher population density (especially during the academic terms).. This probably affected the scale of the local rural economy- as for example in the Otmoor riots of 1830 when the locals broke down fences and destroyed ditches after a recent enclosure that had impacted on the age old economy of the local villages and hamlets, where the ducks and geese were a ready source of revenue. Just pick up a basket and walk into the Oxford colleges!
As you say the landscape was farmed.. and this is a point that I have made about Herding and migrating societies that do not settle, care for and manage the vegetation in the way that it seems to have been managed in Sourthern England..It seems that parts of New England and the Great Lakes region, where the Amerindians also farmed and settled, the woodlands were also carefully managed for future generations.
The Victorian farm series showed a traditional willow basket maker in action.
Of course my grandfather who worked on farms on the Cotswolds no doubt knew all about the fencing and hedging skills, as well as the Cotswold dry-stone walling that he was still being hired to do in his seventies because at that time it was a dying art.
It is nice to know that many of these old ways have been preserved-- But for how long?.
Cass -
Message 17
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Friday, 7th January 2011
Hi Bandick, I found this photo of a building in Bucharest where something very reminiscent of a possible medieval technique is being used. As you can see this method may not have needed as lengthy poles as you might think and the weight of the scaffolding structure is largely supported by the beams driven into the putlogs rather than the on the scaffolding poles themselves, as it is nowadays on free standing scaffolding. I must say, it doesn't look too trustworthy but then medieval health and safety wasn't the priority it is now.
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Message 18
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
Thank you all for some very useful help...
I have followed up Cassās M7 ref Ken Follet. I searched for a contact at Salisbury Cathedral tooā¦ enrolled onto their news broadcasts in the hope of gleaning more. They say since āthe pillars of the earthā was published itās created a huge amount of interest in the cathedralā¦ but I havenāt found a way thru to the main office yet. Never mind, now Iāve fixed my printer I can send them a letter, as I donāt seem to be able to penetrate the email barriers.
Fervalā¦ yours was a good idea, Iām afraid I waste so much time charging around Googling this that and the otherā¦ I get so totally absorbed and end up all over the place. You mention putlogsā¦ but you describe them as the āholesā in the masonryā¦ whereas Iāve always known them as the actual tubeā¦ with the flattened end bit that goes into the brick joint. Iād never picture the idea of chopping out a big hole in the stonework to slot a wooden pole thru.
Simonā¦ first and only time I visited the Minster was shortly after the fireā¦ it was a mass of scaffolding inside and out with polythene sheeting draped everywhere to keep the dust down, and it was in a right sad stateā¦ in retrospect I was surprised it was open to the public. But despite that, the piles of debris still being wheeled out and the dreadful damage, it was still a beautiful placeā¦ I was quite used to building sites and was able to see beyond the damage, the screening and the scaffolding, if you understand. I was up that way last year for some time, unfortunately, I couldnāt revisit, I canāt walk that far now.
IDā¦ the mortar must have presented the masons with quite a nightmareā¦ without the exacting science that modern day mixes achieve. It always amazes me the joints in the stonework in these old buildingsā¦ some joints only become apparent where thereās a slight change of colour or texture in the stone, and some it would be difficult to slot a fag paper in.
Mikeā¦ you mention pictures of the builders working on wooden scaffoldingā¦ I canāt say Iāve ever seen anyā¦ but maybe itās for the lack of looking. How many times do you notice a particular type of carā¦ until you get one yourself, then theyāre everywhere.
Roundsgirlā¦ Iām always fascinated by old walls brickwork or stonework. They all tell their own story. In the area where I live thereās still quite a bit of wattle and daub, and a friend lives in a cob walled cottage. Most people just walk by without a second glanceā¦ but to look beyond ones nose and see where the masonry has been altered, to open up a windowā¦ or close one, the window tax comes to mind. On some rendered walls, if itās done well enough, itās hard to tell without closer inspection if a window is a windowā¦ or just a painted representation on a wall to give the building a grandeur appearance, without the dread of the taxman. Itās interesting to see on the gable end of a building the brickwork having being altered to raise the eaves a few feet, to give a single floored cottage an upstairs. Iām always looking out for bricked up archways tooā¦ for some reason the brickwork may be blended in, but the top line of the arch is often left giving away the presence of an old doorway. And in many cases the whole front of a building may have had a faceliftā¦ changing the outer skin of a building to suit the change in fashionā¦ as in many high streets premises. I must say though, whenever Iāve seen a hole carved out in stoneworkā¦ Iāve always thought it to be either for a floor joistā¦ or roof beamā¦ never thought of it being for scaffolding before.
Your ref to the woodlands is more of an interest to me. I want to know where these scaffold poles were grownā¦ although I was shocked to discover they had to be imported from Norway during the building of Ely Cathedral. I find that so remarkable. I found a couple of sites already posted that give a good account of the countrysideā¦ woodlands etc. fortunately on the larger scale OS maps most osier beds are still markedā¦ and there seems to be good reason why some woodland is named as soānāso coppice, rather than justā¦ jack woods, or nothing at all. I used to visit a RSPB site and help maintain the woodland which involved a bit of coppicing.
I found out some 20yrs ago my motherās family were woodsmen, wild rabbit men, charcoal burners and a couple of ābodgersā. Granny used to make basketsā¦ and had a horse and wagon and a wood round. I was quite shocked to find my granny was a ālumberjackāā¦ (I think she made pegs as well) I wish Iād have known them better.
SJā¦ yes I had found your first refā¦ but not the second, so Iāve spent ages reading thru itā¦ some very interesting stuff that leaves little to the imagination, the problems involved in the building industry. Makes todayās efforts look little more than stacking Lego bricks together.
Fervalā¦ yup found that one tooā¦ Iāve worked off similar kinds of gearā¦ or a bosons chair slung over the side of a buildingā¦ in one case swinging from a crane jib about 120 feet up while taking the signs off the side of a grain siloā¦ then nothing happened, I kept signalling to the driver to lower me as Iād got my arms full with a couple of huge letters. And then the blue flashy lights turned upā¦ the crane driver was taken to hospital suffering from an asthma attack. In the mean time Joe Bloggs was stuck up in the howling winds for hours.
Rain snow sleet and hail I had up there while I waited to be rescued. They had to call for another driver from a distant site to let me down. Scunnered!.
Iāve left a number of emails with a few old building companies, one I believe the oldest in Bournemouth, I used to do a lot of subcontract work for them, so Iām keeping my fingers crossed for any feedback from their achives.
regards bandick. -
Message 19
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
Bandick, I am having the screaming habdabs just /thinking/ of you swinging there in all that weather.
York Minster used to be my favourite Cathedral but I have fallen in love with Chichester now. Hope you get something back from Salisbury. Perhaps they are siffering like Rosslyn chapel after the Da Vinci Code tourists arrived.
My grandfather came from near Ely and his memory as a small boy going to Ely seeing the Cathedral rise like a ship from low lying mist in front of him was still clear even in his old age. -
Message 20
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
SJā¦ when I look back, yes Iām shaking with laughterā¦ but at the time believe me it was no laughing matter. It wasnāt as if the crane driver was a good one anyway. He was too bone idle to slew the crane around and jib out to avoid slamming me into the side of the silo.
He was using me more like a demolition ball, once smashed against the wall, and then heād slew, so I was getting dragged along this huge concrete wall, a few rubs like that and it began to feel like a giant cheese grater.
Initially the company phoned us, I was with the boss in the office at the timeā¦ I heard him say, āno trouble sirā, a few āsureāsā, and the line that clinched itā¦ āI got a bloke stood right next to me here in the office that was born in a bosons chairāā¦ and on those few words I knew I was doomed, as if my throat had just dropped thru my bumā¦ and when I first hooked up to the crane and went skywards, my mate on the ground went a pale shade of green and near passed out. Yes itās nice to look back.
Where near Ely did GF come fromā¦ my friends have a herb garden in Queen Adelaideā¦ I used to love going for walks across the water meadows, and thru the mist on a Sunday morningsā¦ just make out the lantern on the cathedralā¦ very serene. I used to paint a bit thenā¦ enjoyed that. Got a job to hold a pen now, never mind. -
Message 21
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
Re the Isle of Ely as described in Kingsley's Herewarde the Wake, in that marshy district there may well have been a scarcity of trees.. [A recent programme on the trees of Scotland featured recent research that shows that a rise of the sea level about 5,000 years ago killed off many native species..that could not survive in the raised water-table conditions]
But bringing pines across the North Sea and floating them up the rivers would have been a practicle solution. Perhaps this is how the punt was invented- as a way of shipping timber through flooded or Fenland regions.
Cass -
Message 22
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
Hi Bandick,
As Cass has already suggested, Ken Follet's Pillars of the Earth is an excellent and fascinating book if one wants to know all there is to know about cathedral construction. Although, unfortunately, I don't remember him describing how the scaffolding was constructed and what wood was used for it.
There is also another excellent read on cathedral construction, Edward Rutherford's Sarum, in which he explains the history of the area from the end of the last Ice Age up until WWII. The author also explains the entire construction process of Salisbury Cathedral, and it's truely amazing spire. At the back of the book there is a note from the author asking for donations for the repare of the cathedral spire which was deteriorating and in danger of collapse, not surprising I suppose as it has withstood everthing for 7 centuries. I'm not sure if it has since been repared though. -
Message 23
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
Sorry, I should ammend that to read, Edward Rutherford's book Sarum explains the history of the area surrounding Stone Henge from the end of the last Ice Age up until WWII.
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Message 24
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
Hi IDā¦ I have to own up to having never heard of him, or it, until it was recently screened on the televisionā¦ I quite enjoyed it, especially it showing the true colours of the ecclesiastics.
I began to read a few of the comments on the POV boards, and the constant bickering and nitpicking put me off in a wayā¦ I didnāt lose interest so much as missed an episode or twoā¦ and found it hard to pick up the thread. Of course then comes the questionā¦ which was the betterā¦ the book, or the screen version. Sometimes comparing one against another can be such a disappointment.
The cathedral is only a short ride away from meā¦ and Iāve been there so many times. But itās a place that never fails to impress, even as you drive towards it. Itās just so big, so thin, and soā¦ beautiful. I didnāt realise until fairly recently youāre allowed to climb up into the spire, for a fee of course.
I wish Iād have known sooner.
Since ferval mentioned Google scholar Iāve been glued to the screen and turning up all manner of interesting bitsā¦ but I can never find them again afterā¦ I feel the need to lay a string trail behind meā¦ so as I can get out, but also pick up where I left offā¦ if you ken what I mean.
Iāve found many links to scaffolding now but its only the odd sentence in a mass of script, Iāve been into gargoyles, pillars, buttresses, hammer beam roofingā¦ transportation of the raw materials etcā¦ all part and parcel of the building process but still so little on the guys that grew it, cut it, moved it, and put it up. I mean it must have been a huge industry in its own right. You walk down the street today, and you see it, but itās just an inconvenience when you may have to step onto the road to avoid a mass of scaffolding propping up the front of some huge building. And if you want itā¦ pick up the phone bookā¦ you really are spoilt for choice. Thereās no numbers for wooden scaffold poles.
Go on any building siteā¦ there can be scaffolding smothering the place, inside and out. But to get a man up to the next lift, to enable him to work on say the ceiling, or the top of a door frame, or a suspended ceiling, and heāll have his own special aid. Itāll be covered in paint, plaster, artex, concrete etcā¦. but under all of thatā¦ itāll be a plastic milk crateā¦ Iāve seen fights over whoās pinched a milk crateā¦ theyāre as rare as henās teeth, and you never let it out of your sight.
Itās a step up, get two and a plank and youāve got a staging, itās a table, a seat, something to carry your gear about in, itās a saw benchā¦ its marvellous, and now can I sell you oneā¦ they come in two colours, a vibrant red, or the snazzy blueā¦ and so long as the milkman doesnāt know, theyāre free issue.
Regards bandickā¦ -
Message 25
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
"The cathedral is only a short ride away from meā¦ and Iāve been there so many times. But itās a place that never fails to impress, even as you drive towards it. Itās just so big, so thin, and soā¦ beautiful. I didnāt realise until fairly recently youāre allowed to climb up into the spire, for a fee of course.
I wish Iād have known sooner."
Hi Bandick,
Follet's book is about the construction of a fictional cathedral, Kingsbridge and is only based on the cathedrals at both Wells and Salisbury. Whereas Rutherford's book is about the actual construction of Salisbury itself, lucky you to be so familiar with it all. It sounds so impressive that after reading the book I determined to get there, one day.....eventually.... sigh. -
Message 26
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
"marvellous, and now can I sell you oneā¦ they come in two colours, a vibrant red, or the snazzy blueā¦ and so long as the milkman doesnāt know, theyāre free issue."
Forgot to add, sorry but those crates are a dime a dozen here in Greece. I agree they are great for everything and are indestructable but I sounds like I should be selling them on ebay if they are so rare to get hold of over there!
Because we get such strong wind here people put those crates on the roof, fill it with cement and plant their TV aerial in the middle. Once the cement sets even a hurrican won't move 'em, ingenious and I kid you not! -
Message 27
Posted by Gran (U14388334) on Saturday, 8th January 2011
What an interesting discussion Bandick and Dawn, I decided to have a look at Salisbury Cathedral and came up with a picture where it has scaffolding on one part, it is certainly modern scaffolding but I am unable to make out if they are using the holes provided in the wall.
Gran -
Message 28
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Sunday, 9th January 2011
Bandick, I will come back and read all the messages properly but just wanted to say that imo Follett's book is much better than the series. [ I enjoyed much of that but it does deviate from the book quite a lot for dramatic reasons.].
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Message 29
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Sunday, 9th January 2011
Hi IDā¦ thatās pricelessā¦makes me wonder, in the forthcoming book ā101 things you can do with a plastic milk crateā where on the list would its design purpose rateā¦ obviously not at the top.
On an ever-so-slightly more serious note, there canāt be many mundane objects that have acquired such a wide range of uses, canāt think of any at the momentā¦ but Iāll try.
The winds you speak ofā¦ is that the Meltemiāsā¦? Are you on the mainlandā¦ or an island as your name suggestsā¦?
Granā¦ nice pictureā¦ have you seen it in the flesh. The route I always go, the road seems to go on endlessly, and then you go round a bend up and over a hill, and there it isā¦ slap bang in the middle of the road, framed through an archway of trees. It takes you by surpriseā¦ we used to give the kids a sweetie, the first one to spot it. Kept them quiet long enough.
When you stand close to it and look upwards, it does fair take your breath awayā¦ it just goes on, and on, a real stairway to heaven. Its spire is the tallest in Briton, a smidgeon over 400 feet tall, I canāt remember, and is said to weigh over 6000 tons, but it has the oldest working clock, and has one of the copies of Magna Carta. I canāt remember any famous persons being buried thereā¦ no kings or queens etc.
Just imagine the timber scaffolding needed to get up thereā¦ Iād worry, by the time theyād got up there the timbers on ground level could have rotted outā¦ even with todayās modern materials itās a major undertaking.
Truly amazing it has stood for so long considering so many were dismantledā¦ a state crime.
regards bandick -
Message 30
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Sunday, 9th January 2011
There is a discussion here on the differences between Follett's book and the series, it appears that the series producers took more than a few liberties. But when did they not?
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Message 31
Posted by Silver Jenny (U12795676) on Sunday, 9th January 2011
Item which come to mind are shipping containers made into housing. I had a link to the architect who does that if i can recall where I saved it.
[Not sure that has the smallest link to scaffolding.] -
Message 32
Posted by Simon de Montfort (U14278627) on Sunday, 9th January 2011
Yes Bandick, there is no doubt that Salisbury Cathedral is a beautiful building.
Without doubt too that it has the highest spire at 404 ft. However I gather that Lincoln Cathedral was the tallest bulding in Britain until its central tower fell down around 1500.
Going back to my remarks about York Minster (Response 10) taking 252 years to build and subsequent confirmation that the Masons daren't work outdoors in the Winter due to flimsy wooden scaffolding and inclement Yorkshire weather. I 've heard that Salisbury Cathedral was also started in 1220 and only took 30 years to build. Is this true? If so it must confirm that Wiltshire Winters were balmy & mild enough for the Masons to work flat out all the year round! Maybe there was a completion clause in their contracts and they had to meet a deadline despite the risks involved! -
Message 33
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Sunday, 9th January 2011
Simonā¦ thanks for that, I knew it was only a gnats over 400 ftā¦ 404 ft. I suppose when most are worried about the odd inch, 4 ft is a lot.
Iāve never been to Lincolnā¦ been to Gainsborough a few times, and thatās the closest. I didnāt know it was the one time tallest eitherā¦ it seems thou that its actual height cannot be verified. I know nothing about it actually apart from a few lines in a book I have. If it was bigger than Salisbury, Iām not doubting you, Iām just trying to imagine such a catastrophic event as it falling downā¦ I know its estimated Salisburyās spire is in excess of 6,000 tonsā¦ itās too much too imagine. Must have been like a mountain falling down. Was it struck by lightning or storm damage. Itās a very brave man that can say with conviction yep! That trench is deep enough for the footings. I would hardly think āoopsā was enough.
I used to enjoy walking across the field from my friends to Ely cathedralā¦ and now I seem to remember they had a big collapse prior to the building of the āLanternāā¦ the church that once stood on Glastonbury fell down in an earthquake in 1275... āis this the wrath of godā at work.
York minster taking 252 years to build may have many reasons other than just the weather. They had a blank canvas to work on: *In 1219 Richard Poore, the then Bishop of Sarum, decided to establish a new town and cathedral on an estate in his possession in the valley, on the banks of the River Avon. The town was laid out in a grid pattern and work started in 1220, with the cathedral commencing the following year, and lasting 38 years. The town developed rapidly, and by the 14th century was the foremost town in Wiltshire.* there appears to have been no history of great family feudsā¦ and little other distractions, the wars of the roses etc.? York seems to have been the cross roads to everywhere with too many warring factions eager to expand their ambitions.
It is warmer hereā¦ a lot warmerā¦ and yes it must have played a huge part. I can draw a huge comparison between where I live now, the new forestā¦ to where I moved from in Poole. Snow in Poole is virtually unknownā¦ two flakes fall from the sky, and the place goes to pot. Where I am nowā¦ itās been white outside for three weeks and only frost free these last few days.
I recall some people coming to stay with us from Buxton; it was in about March, April timeā¦ I was out digging the garden stripped to the waistā¦ when they arrived and climbed out the carā¦ fur boots fur coatsā¦ they looked like theyād come on an Inuit day excursion.
Almost certainly, there would have been various ālet outā and āwhat ifā clausesā¦ and even a few āwhat if what ifā clauses. As for deadlinesā¦ manarna.
Kind regards bandick -
Message 34
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Monday, 10th January 2011
Re the length of time that it took to build York Minster compared with Salisbury:
There is also the question of paying for such an enterprise..Yorkshire was chosen by the Cistercian monks during the twelfth century because of the relative poverty and deprivation. The great Cistercian monasteries became thriving businesses, and some of the most glorious religious buildings in England.. But the Pligrimage of Grace in 1534 (?) stressed just how much the Yorkshire economy and society depended upon the monasteries.
Cass -
Message 35
Posted by Gran (U14388334) on Monday, 10th January 2011
Hi Bandick
No I have not seen Salisbury Cathedral, althoguh I was brought up in Bristol. It is indeed absolutely lovely, I often wonder when I look around where all our building skills have gone, all the buildings look very similar now.
Gran -
Message 36
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Tuesday, 11th January 2011
Hi Bandick,
...so what did we use for scaffolding in history? Ģż
I've found this in Ian Mortimer's "The Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England":
"Close inspection will reveal that the scaffolding is made up of poles of alder and ash lashed together, supporting planks of poplar, with pulleys for raising and manoeuvring stones and baskets of tiles... "
Mortimer also gives some interesting info about trees:
"In medieval England there are just three coniferous species - Scots pine, yew and juniper - and juniper is more of a bush than a tree. There are very few evergreens at all - holly is the only common one - so the winter skyline is particularly bleak. Every other pine, spruce, larch, cedar, cypress and fir you can think of is absent. In case you see deal or fir boards used in a lord's castle and wonder where the trees are, the answer is that they are in Scandinavia: the timber is imported. Nor will you find holm oaks, red oaks, redwoods, Turkey oaks or horse chestnuts. The trees which cover England are largely those introduced during the Bronze Age and Roman periods mingled with the species which repopulated the British Isles after the last Ice Age: rowan, ash, alder, field maple, hazel, sweet chestnut, whitebeam, aspen, some poplars, silver birch, beech, lime, walnut, willow, elm and hornbeam. And of course the good old oak. Both forms of oak are common: the small sessile variety which thrives in hilly areas, and the far more valuable pedunculate sort used for building houses and ships."
SST.
PS William Golding (of "Lord of the Flies" fame) wrote a book about the building of Salisbury Cathedral. It's called "The Spire". If you don't like novels you probably won't enjoy it as it's actually a study of obsession, pride and folly! That said, the descriptions are brilliant: one critic commented that "...after reading it one feels that one has taken part in building the spire, hauling the timbers carefully up through a hole in the vaulting, cutting and placing the stone precisely, so well does Golding transmit the feel of physical things..." I can't remember any mention of the scaffolding though!
PPS Cass, October 1536 - February 1537
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Message 37
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 11th January 2011
Thanks Temperance
Cass -
Message 38
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Tuesday, 11th January 2011
The putlogs were cantilevered and had to be strong enough to take the weight, my guess would be oak.
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Message 39
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 11th January 2011
I also understand that the masons didn't stand on planks on the scaffolding but on a type wattle matting so that would reduce the weight enormously.
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Message 40
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Wednesday, 12th January 2011
Hi temperanceā¦
Thinking your Ian Mortimer would be an author of antiquity, at least from the court of Richard lll (whatever made me think that) I looked him up on the Google boxā¦ and what a shock. Heās just a youngsterā¦ but reading on to find he comes from Petts Wood, well thatās just a mile or two up the road from my old home stomping grounds.
There are some fine woodland there, and I think as a kid when we used to go out to play, it was usually āup the woodsā getting lost in there was always great funā¦ in the boy scouts we used to trap rabbits there, and rig up rope runways, and our schools cross country running course was thru the same woodsā¦ knowing the woods well must have greatly helped with my lap times, and I eventually used to run for northwest Kent. Sad to think I couldnāt run a bath now, but many lads got lost in there. Thereās a memorial stone in the woods somewhere to William Willet the daylight saving manā¦ not that thereās too much daylight gets thru the dense foliage, (well it used to be) and it wasnāt every time you could find it. God, dyou know thatās really triggered a few memoriesā¦ Iād love to go back thereā¦ I bet thereās no rabbits now, itās been built over or you have to buy a day ticket to enterā¦ maybe the woodland paths are all one way, and itās got organised nature trails with numbered posts and not a chance of getting yourself lost anymore.
Iāve read a few of the books reviews, and I think I may first see if the mobile library can get itā¦ theyāre a very good. But yes, it certainly looks interestingā¦ although I see one review says 'It is Monty Python and the Holy Grail with footnotes, and, my goodness it is fun'ā¦ oh dear.
haestenā¦ thanks for thatā¦
fervalā¦ so no Mr. Elfānāsafety then. This mattingā¦ do you mean like a āhurdleāā¦?
Iāve read so much latelyā¦ there just arenāt enough hours in the day. Thatās very handy when I canāt sleepā¦ there is quite a bit of information about coppicing right thru the agesā¦ but still only the odd sentence on scaffolding. Iāve tried contacting a few old builders, but Iām going to try the forestry commission and the woodland trust nextā¦and I wonder if a few municipal offices would still have archives with information. Steel tube scaffolding was such a recent innovation there must be some old boys sat in their allotment sheds yarning the day away that probably used wooden poles.
Thanks bandick.
Ps.Temps, wherever do you get the idea I donāt like novelsā¦? -
Message 41
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Wednesday, 12th January 2011
A friend of mine who worked in West Germany in the 60s said they still used cantilever putlogs. I saw wooden scaffold in Spain during the 50s, it was lashed with rope.
I have never seen it in this country. -
Message 42
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Wednesday, 12th January 2011
Hi Bandick,
The 'wattle' came from this,
I agree, it does sound like a rather unsteady base for manipulating great blocks of stone.
This site lists lots of different species and what they were used for, Black Poplar is one noted for use as scaffolding poles.
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Message 43
Posted by David James Wall (U14752090) on Friday, 14th January 2011
Friday 14th January, 2011. GMT 1710
Re: scaffolding in history.
I'm not sure whether this is appropriate but in contemporary Italy scaffolding is rarely used on historic structures. In 1986 a wooden structure built like a siege tower was seen on the exterior of the Doges Palace in Venice. As far as I understand it was moved side on around the exterior walls as the restoration continued over a number of years. -
Message 44
Posted by rob (U14794943) on Wednesday, 23rd February 2011
I was once told that one of the reasons why the present York Minster took so long to build (1220 -1472) was that the masons didn't work on the outside of the building in Winter. Considering the rickety wooden scaffolding up to 50m high in inclement Yorkshire weather (like Dec just passed) it seemed a sensible statement. Of course there were wars with the Scots , Black Death & also the Wars of the Roses. It is a wonder that it was ever finshed. Not to mention Henry Vlll's matrimonial problems coming along a little later!
I doubt if it looked such a majestic sight as it does now when teenager Edward lll married his teenage Queen Phillippa there in 1328. Only the transepts and nave had been completed by then.
Ģż Hi
Just thought i would say they never worked outside possibly because you cannot use lime in the winter. Lime mortar takes weeks , sometimes months to set and frost will turn it to a powdery , fragile substance that will simply crumble away. -
Message 45
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Thursday, 24th February 2011
Hi robā¦ thanks for bringing that upā¦ Iām still waiting for a couple of books before I can return to research on this scaffolding businessā¦ sadly Iāve had no luck with any of the NT or WT organisations that Iād thought would have been helpfulā¦ but this problem with lime mortarā¦ what did the Romans useā¦ what about the castle buildersā¦ they seem to have sprung up like they were going out of fashionā¦ seems like every man and his dog that came over with Duke William built a castleā¦ and then the profusion of Edwardian castles built towards the end of the 13th century in his efforts to suppress the wild wabbid welshā¦ or did they have some secrets to set the stuff a bit quick like. When was lime mortar superseded by a superior mixā¦?
As Iām aware it wasnāt until Smeaton took on the Eddystone rock project that he developed Portland cementā¦ couldnāt have been reliant on lime until thenā¦ could weā¦?
Many thanksā¦ -
Message 46
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Thursday, 24th February 2011
You wouldn't be able to build anything in stone with just plain lime mortar. Norman castle had a very strong mortar but the recipe is now lost, ground cockle shells were used a lot.
Stone has no suction, so even using lime mortar virtually dry, the bottom bed course would start to compress after a couple of courses.
"In the context of lime or cement, the term 'hydraulic' means to 'harden under water'.
The rule with engineering bricks with hydraulic cement mortar, is 6 courses per day because of the weight and lack of suction.
You can cheat by sprinkling neat cement on the bed joints causing some suction of the moisture.
Btw, frost/freezing temperatures kill all mortars, although there are some antifreeze today.
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