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Posted by steve_swift (U2177659) on Wednesday, 12th December 2007
Forgive me but I thought this deserved its own thread.
The coldest place in the UK tonight is forecast to be East Anglia in which case anyone in Norwich or thereabouts stands the best chance of success. Equally anyone on higher ground may want to give it a go.
Although my car was frozen this morning, the milk remained stubbornly liquid. Who needs a Kyoto summit to confirm our worst fears?
I think we may have an issue here.
Have we had an internationally recognised "standard" set for what type of milk we're trying to freeze? Obviously any school-boy who paid even the faintest attention in Chemistry, (or was it Physics? Was I even paying attention?), will tell you, the freezing point of matter will be determined by it's chemical make-up.
Therefore, full-fat milk, with it's higher fat content, will have a different freezing point to that of fully-skimmed milk, (or "white water" as it is more commonly known). Also, should we exclude the use of goat, sheep, rat, etc. milk and keep it entirely bovine?
I wouldn't beat yourself up over this Steve, clearly it may well be your tools that are at fault.
Can we get the IOC or some similar authoritarian body, to establish an acredited standard version of the "White Stuff" in order to ensure a level playing-field for milk-freezers not just here in the UK but world-wide?
, in reply to message 2.
Posted by mangad the improbable (U3478096) on Wednesday, 12th December 2007
Mangad's top tip on milk freezing. If you want your milk frozen, put it in a freezer.
The end.
, in reply to message 1.
Posted by Al McGregor (U2976807) on Wednesday, 12th December 2007
White water, full-fat, full-cream Jersey, call it what you like, it won't be freezing in Dundee tonight. We're enjoying unseasonally warm temperatures right now. However, bound to change, so milk carton at the ready.
, in reply to message 4.
Posted by steve_swift (U2177659) on Wednesday, 12th December 2007
I used semi-skimmed but in an old-fashioned bottle with a foil top.
When I checked on it this morning the birds hadn't pecked at it which reminded me that today's generation of birds have missed out on the doorstep pinta.
I'm no chemist or physicist but have found a few relevant scientific treatises on the internet. I learn from professors Harris and Bachman of the Dairy Science Department at the University of Florida that the fat content does not affect the the freezing point of milk, since the fat is not dissolved. Whatever type of milk is used, it will freeze at around -0.540 degrees centigrade (or 31.03 degrees on the preferred Fahrenheit scale).
It's looking a bit nippy outside here in North London and the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ weather people have predicted a low of around -3 degrees centigrade tonight - so potentially excellent milk freezing conditions. Alternatively I'm off to Stockholm at the end of this month and it's likely to be rather chilly, so could probably freeze some there. Not sure about getting it back though what with the airport restrictions on transportation of liquids. Could try arguing that a frozen substance can not be regarded as a liquid. Suspect I may be given short shrift though.
Do you actually want to keep the milk after it's been frozen? I'm sure there must be good reasons for freezing the stuff but think I must have missed the show when the subject first came up, or perhaps I just wasn't concentrating. Was it a Thursday?
, in reply to message 6.
Posted by steve_swift (U2177659) on Wednesday, 12th December 2007
Alan - you've elevated the discussion to a hitherto unseen technical plain.
It all stemmed from my abortive attempt during the hours of Gideon's show to fry an egg on the bonnet of my car during the heatwave of '06. Freezing milk seemed like an appropriate counterpoint to this benign experiment and Gideon clearly thinks it is likely to keep people listening beyond their natural bedtime - hence the global invitation.
, in reply to message 7.
Posted by markym07931 (U1606093) on Wednesday, 12th December 2007
i'm wondering if the bottle / mug / cup etc will affect the milk freezing.....
mine is in an old fashioned milk bottle.... and if we're freezing a pint of milk, it has to be done in this style of bottle....
foil lid or no foil lid is debatable though...
mine has been outside an hour now... must go check on it...
, in reply to message 6.
Posted by the_roofdog (U9532299) on Wednesday, 12th December 2007
Although, as has been pointed out, the fat content has no effect on freezing point, the freezing point is closely related to the concentration of lactose.
Something to bear in mind if you're mildly lactose intolerant. If you're fully lactose intolerant I probably wouldn't risk it.
, in reply to message 9.
Posted by steve_swift (U2177659) on Thursday, 13th December 2007
Frozen solid this morning.
, in reply to message 10.
Posted by David Jennings (U983176) on Thursday, 13th December 2007
Fat content may or may not have something to do with it, but the amount of milk you put out will certainly affect how long it takes to freeze.
I reckon it's got to be pretty nippy to get a whole pint to freeze in the three hours between 10 and 1. Much better chance if you just put a saucer or half-filled small cup out. If you put out a whole churn, it won't freeze if you leave it out all night.
Something to do with mass and specific heat capacity, I believe. See
, in reply to message 11.
Posted by Pete_inthehills (U1342784) on Monday, 17th December 2007
In the summer, everyone sweats and says "ooh, its hot enough to cook an egg on the pavement". Well now that its shivering season, is it cold enough to freeze an egg during Gid's show?
pete
inthehills
are you talking about normal eggs or human embryos?
, in reply to message 13.
Posted by Pete_inthehills (U1342784) on Tuesday, 18th December 2007
when you say normal eggs are you talking chicken, goose, duckbilled platypus, or ostrich?
, in reply to message 14.
Posted by steve_swift (U2177659) on Tuesday, 18th December 2007
chicken (medium).
, in reply to message 15.
Posted by Al McGregor (U2976807) on Tuesday, 18th December 2007
Battery or free range?
, in reply to message 16.
Posted by steve_swift (U2177659) on Tuesday, 18th December 2007
eggs are one of the foodstuffs where buying organic is definitely worth it - nice deep yellow yolk and an albumen that coagulates nicely when poached.
, in reply to message 17.
Posted by Al McGregor (U2976807) on Tuesday, 18th December 2007
That's breakfast sorted then - hard or soft yolk?
, in reply to message 18.
Posted by Pete_inthehills (U1342784) on Tuesday, 18th December 2007
its currently -6C up here in Aberdeenshire. It looks like we're going for frozen solid eggs for breakfast.
pete
inthehills
, in reply to message 19.
Posted by Al McGregor (U2976807) on Tuesday, 18th December 2007
6C and holding here in Dundee - it'll be runny centres for us then
what about soya? (milk not eggs)
, in reply to message 21.
Posted by steve_swift (U2177659) on Wednesday, 19th December 2007
soya Mr Green - are you a new ager?
, in reply to message 22.
Posted by steve_swift (U2177659) on Wednesday, 19th December 2007
That frozen egg is a thing of beauty.
, in reply to message 19.
Posted by TarTrillian (U9040351) on Wednesday, 19th December 2007
The frozen egg is indeed beautiful...I think I shall try freezing one here in Texas..will probably have to wait until deep into January.
, in reply to message 24.
Posted by Pete_inthehills (U1342784) on Wednesday, 19th December 2007
I'm glad you like the egg.
The ice was crystalline and it made it look like it was glowing from the inside. The picture seems more yellow that it really was. The egg actually cracked during the night when it froze.
About 10 years ago when those draft flow beers were all the rage, I'd left a four pack in the car. It was really really cold -14C, and when I retrieved them, they'd frozen.
Perhaps this xmas I should try and make beer icepop. Get a cup of beer, put a lollypop stick in it and leave it out over night.
Something for the future I think.
pete
inthehills
, in reply to message 25.
Posted by TarTrillian (U9040351) on Wednesday, 19th December 2007
I'm seeing a really cool coffee table book of frozen thing photographs in your future...I'd buy it most definitely.
, in reply to message 26.
Posted by Valour Gull (U1637480) on Wednesday, 19th December 2007
I wish to dispute the ethics of the frozen egg.
It's just wrong.
Unless you used the egg in question for a scrambled egg breakfast.
, in reply to message 27.
Posted by TarTrillian (U9040351) on Wednesday, 19th December 2007
Or perhaps a nice eggy snowcone??
I understand that if one freezes cider and removes the ice, one ends up with a highly concentrated apple-based alcoholic beverage...
Never tried it, but would be interested in any reports from those who do.
Maybe have the asprin handy...
Oh, don't be such a spoilsport, it is a think of beauty.
I can't see the beautiful frozen egg, been all over GC home page - I don't see it
may I suggest frozen satsumas - left some in a vehicle in Aboyne - minus something ridiculous it was, delicious they were, fruit that bites back.
tangerines too, maybe ask Gideon to play Sopwith Camel as an accompaniment
, in reply to message 31.
Posted by Pete_inthehills (U1342784) on Thursday, 20th December 2007
ladies and Gentlemen, boys and girls listen to this tale of woe.
It started innocently enough, it was a just a laugh. I meant no harm. It was cold, I was egged on. I froze an egg. I meant no harm. But its a dark world out there and its easy to slip in to the freezing dark side. And only with the thaw is it possible to see what has happened and lament.
Yesterday I laughed at the ice. Today the thaw came and had the last laugh.
Yes, I'm sure all you happy go lucky milk freezers out there can tell where this is going.
I had a burst pipe. No longer the mystic beauty of a frozen egg, just the gritty reality of plumbers tape, too much water and plumber answer machines.
So folks, enjoy the cold, but just remember...beware the burst pipe.
pete
inthehills
, in reply to message 32.
Posted by Al McGregor (U2976807) on Thursday, 20th December 2007
And Heather said it was going to be -10C in them thar hills tonight - hope you're lagged good and proper.
I feel, as duffers, that you've all lost your way.
Duffers shouldn't be preoccupied by freezing objects, they should be concentrating on the thawing and maintainence of frost-free amenities.
Selfish gits.
I've had my pint of milk outside for the last two weeks now and it most definitely is solid! Funny, I didn't think it had been that cold for the last few nights...
, in reply to message 35.
Posted by Cyril Benson in Penrith (U2611279) on Monday, 24th December 2007
Why does a pint of milk remain liquid when your car is iced over?
There are 3 methods of heat transfer: conduction, convection, radiation. Conduction won't count for a bottle stood on the step, the area of contact is minimal and the step is no colder than the bottle. The heat is lost by convection to the air, and radiation to the sky and the depths of space (which is very cold, on a clear night). If the air temperature holds at 0 degrees, then after an infinite time, all warmer objects will have cooled to 0 also. However, to freeze (change phase from liquid to solid), the milk must give up its latent heat, which requires a lot of extra cooling. It's in a bottle, which has a good ratio of volume to surface area, so radiative heat loss is unlikely to be sufficient.
Whereas, the car has a large surface area, and is made of very thin metal (especially Fiats). They lose heat by radiation to the cold clear sky. That's why cars ice over before anything else, even if the air isn't actually freezing.
I've missed the point again haven't I
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