Talk of invasion
For the moment it's Turkish tankers not Turkish tanks that are lining up at the border with Iraq.
A long line of oil and petrol tankers snakes along the Silk Road, through parched fields, towards the mountains and the border crossing at Habur. The drivers are incredibly patient, sitting on little stools outside their vast vehicles in the burning heat and waiting for the boys to come along on rickety tricycles to sell them cold drinks or a glass from the trays of tea. "We are already starving," grumbles one man. "If they invade we will die."
Hang on. Invade Iraq? Hasn't someone already thought of that?
But this is a Turkish threat, and an American fear. The Iraqi foreign minister claims that 140,000 Turkish troops are massing on the border. Many Turkish generals think the government should go in, and so do senior politicians in the main opposition party. The logic is easy. This is Turkey's Kurdish region, where a civil war, a struggle against terrorism, a fight for freedom... you choose the label you wish, but whatever you call it, it's been going on for more than 20 years. Two Turkish soldiers were killed just days ago, by Kurdish fighters.
Plain weird
But the invasion of Iraq changed everything. Almost certainly the most stable part of that country is the Kurdish region right across the border from Turkey. It is not, of course, independent, but has the sort of autonomy many Turkish Kurds can only dream about. Many see the Kurds as the Americans' most important and most loyal allies within Iraq. The Turkish military says the Kurdish guerrillas - the PKK, who have long holed up in the mountains - now operate with impunity from within Iraq itself. The Turkish military see the existence of Kurdistan in Iraq as both an immediate strategic threat and a political one.
The scenery here is entrancing, dramatic and just plain weird. A vast panorama of fawn mountains gives way to a wide river delta. Black shale forms large hillocks like scrunched up velvet. The evening sun light fills the landscape with a golden glow. Geological formations like so many giant axe heads stick out sheer from the rock face. Every few miles there might be a sign of life. A low concrete building with a roof of dried branches, complete with leaves. A little girl pushing a wheel barrow across the road. A checkpoint. The young gendarmes are polite but look hard and don't smile. Reminders that this is a zone of conflict are everywhere.
In the magical landscape, one building stands out: a pagoda atop a hill. Not Shangri La, but the home of the Turkish special forces. But it's just one of many signs of the military presence. Eight-floor barracks houses with their own mosque attached perch on hill tops, behind barbed wire. Tanks poke their guns out from canvas awnings overlooking the Tigris. Civilian minibuses carry soldiers in and out of the area, a miniature armoured car leading the convoy. In fairness, and with the wisdom of driving around for a day, it's a lot less in your face than the British presence used to be in Northern Ireland.
Election issue
But 140,000 troops? It's safe to say that last month did see a fairly large influx of men and machinery but they are now in the military zone where we are not allowed to go.
One local who knows the area well thinks perhaps there are now 60,000 men massed here. But guessing at numbers is fairly pointless. What is certainly the case is that this has been ramped up as an election issue. A stick to beat the ruling AK party with, as too scared to stand up for Turkish interests, too craven to defy the Americans, unwilling to pursue and destroy the terrorists.
I'm not exactly a military expert, but the idea of a land invasion seems fanciful. Surely a few special forces, or air strikes or artillery barrages would do the job better, if there is a job to be done? But talk of invasion does worry the Americans. Not just because it would destabilise the one region of Iraq that could be called almost stable, but because their latest "surge" in Baghdad relies on Kurdish fighters. If these felt their homeland was threatened they might go home, forgetting to drop their American weapons on the way, and leave the surge, well... distinctly un-surgey.
Frightened Americans may be just what the Turks want. Of course, given the fairly fevered election campaign I'm not suggesting any collusion between the government, opposition and the army but it might suit all their interests if the Americans were to be forced to watch more carefully what the Turkish Kurds are getting up to in Iraq. But no amount of slaughter will change the fact that a nearly independent Kurdistan on Turkey's border is a challenge to all involved.
You've made many interesting comments on what I see as the main election issue... I will reply later with some more thoughts of my own.
I鈥檓 Mark Mardell, the 麻豆约拍's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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I agree with your observation on the coincidence between the Turkish saber-rattling and the election. I lived there for nine months and I personally believe that many people, although not particularly interested in an invasion of Iraq, would be supportive of a tougher stance against the PKK. So many people already blame the group for every act of violence in the country, it wouldn't take much to goad the people to support a war.
I am really shocked that you wouldn't know why 140,000 troops would assemble when over the past 30 years tens of thousands of people have died at the hands of PKK soldiers, who are now finding strength in cells in Northern Iraq. 37000 people died due to PKK terrorism in 1984 alone. Terrorism isn't a new phenomenon just because it hit the west. Indeed, life has great value in the East. And, you should also check into the PKK leader's propaganda war with Turkish officials -- this is an important angle which significantly waters down the political theory you suggest. May was a deadline of sorts set by the PKK leader, and his soldiers struck Ankara first. I don't care what time it is, nobody wants to see a rerun of a fortified PKK running wild in Turkey. To stand up and say it's political is nonsense. It's practical. Political is what the Brits and US soldiers are doing in Iraq right now. 9/11 was a great tragedy but is a tad short of the number lost in 1984.
A Brit goes to Diyarbakir and claims it to be a Kurdish city despite the fact that half of the population consist of people who did't vote for the Kurdish parties. How come you then can claim it is a kurdish city?
Kurds and Turks are so well mixed, and the fact that Apo's and many other Kurds' native language being Turkish is alone enough to conclude that Kurds in Turkey are integrated into the society.
Someone naming it 'Occupation of Kurdish land by Turks' sounds very silly, since Turks own this part of Asia Minor since 10th century and let Kurds live amongst them.
Turkey is a huge country with rich and strong leadership tradition on other Muslim countries. If it does not get an effective position in EU then it would be a downfall considering its potential. The centre of Earth is shifting from Americas to Far East, and EU do not seem to be an alternative power in future's world. Why would a young, energetic nation should go in for such a union? Turks should realise that there are many sides of Europe, that is not one country, but a union with confilicting ideas and interests. There are sensible people who want it in for EU's sake and those who oppose it for historical reasons.
I'm confident Turkey won't launch a large scale invasion for the simple reason that it would be as disastrous for the Turks as it would be for the Americans, if not more so.
1. The Kurdish militiamen (peshmerga) are very well trained and devoted fighters, now equipped, as Mardell pointed out, with American weaponry. The attacks on Turkish troops by Kurdish separatists, while deadly, are nothing compared to the losses they'd experience fighting Iraqi Kurdistan. Iraqi Kurds MIGHT decide not to get involved, but it's doubtful Turkey would manage to only attack Turkish-Kurds without harming any Iraqi Kurds. Even if Turkey somehow manages to avoid provoking Iraqi Kurds, by invading Iraq, it risks fighting America's current enemies in Iraq because #2:
2. Turkey, as a member of NATO, an EU aspirant, and a nation with relatively good relations with Israel, would be portrayed by the insurgents in Iraq as attacking in yet another attempt by "The West" (or the "Crusader-Zionist Alliance", take your pick) to humiliate Arabs and conquer Iraqi lands. Therefore, in addition to Kurds, insurgent groups in Iraq would be another set of enemies Turkey would have to fight. Keep in mind, Iraqi insurgents have 5 years of experience fighting the best trained and equipped army in the world. Turkey's military is no paper tiger, but the insurgents have perfected methods for attacking conventional armies. America could help out in this case, but that leads to #3:
3. America would probably leave Iraq if Turkey invaded. Pressure has been building quite steadily for an exit from Iraq. A Turkish invasion would completely devastate the "Surge" strategy, and to be blunt there is no plan B. If Turkey destroys the last area of stability in Iraq, America is going to get out of the way in a hurry.
End result: Turkey fighting the Peshmerga, and with America gone, insurgent groups would spread chaos to the northern part of Iraq as well. Possible entry of Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Iran could lead to wider Middle East war.
I think Mardell's absolutely right: The troop buildup is pure posturing. Unlike the U.S., the Turkish government understands the Middle East and wouldn't do something as stupid and needless as invade Iraq.
As a Brit it's hard to find any moral high ground to stand on these days but I feel I can't help feeling that the Turks were much happier when the Kurds in Northern Iraq were a displaced and desperate people being picked off by Saddam's forces. Then their UN protectors had to stand by while the Turkish air force ran bombing sortis on the refugees in the mountains, and the Turkish army stole food aid and blankets from the camps.
It's ironic that now the Kurds are finally able to enjoy a degree of stability in Iraq that they should face an increased threat from accross the border that will doubltess be legitimised as another 'war on terror'. Of course, as part of the Allied forces, we were hardly blameless in the post Desert Storm situation.
Personally I would like Turkey to demonstrate their maturity as a great nation in accepting the Armenian genocide as part of history, and the international community should not continue to pander to their administration in supressing the overwhelming historical documentation of this. Hopefully an acceptance of history would prevent them ever being condemmed to repeat it..
Dear Mark,
I regularly read your articles as I often feel that you reflect something new in the world of Media - the idea that whilst of course we are forever first and foremost British, we are also now without any shadow of doubt Europeans.
I am a case in point, being 100% British yet having lived and worked for more than half of my life, in continental Europe... notably Switzerland and France. As a result I now speak English of course - it is after all my mother tongue - but also fluent French and good Italian... being infused with these very different cultures has led me to believe that, modestly, I am a representative of a new breed: 'the Europeans'... and at the very least a 'citizen of the world'... much like yourself.
I was particularly interested to read all of you articles in the lead up to the recent elections in France... it was refreshing to find that there are in the British media people who can take an objective view on the issues and personalities at stake and reflect them truthfully for 'little Britain' to be informed if they so wish - if of course they can cast their eyes away from the 'jingoistic' headlines of 'the Sun' that do absolutely nothing for the wider picture and the quality of a realistic proper debate.
I now have more friends in Milan and Paris than I do in London... and ALL of my French friends were praying for Sarkozy to win and transform their country by leading a 'Thatcherite' revolution in the economy and throughout society. The ultimate transformation of a beleaguered French society will hopefully, in their eyes, see France finally cast away it's 'irons' and at last fulfill it's potential becoming the 'world beating' country and economy it arguably could be had it acted some 20 years ago!
I am a property developer, and am currently developing the very first 'European Standard' housing estate in Iraqi Kurdistan. Reading your coverage of your visit to the Turkish border with Kurdistan ('of Iraq' as it states when you cross the bridge at Zaho) reminded me clearly of my first impressions on the drive from Diyarbakir to the border, where the last SMS I sent to my friends depicted the environment as something akin to the 'wild West of the USA & the Grand Canyon' - your comparison to 'parts of Spain' rings true also, and in a word we probably both could imagine a resurgent Sergio Leone using this natural decor to add to his collection of 'spaghetti western' movies! - for a more appropriate ambiance the taxis in this part of the world could be well advised to play the Best of Ennio Morricone when driving westerners around this part of the world!...
During every trip out of Diyarbakir my taxi was stopped by Turkish military and sometimes searched comprehensively such are the tensions you have duly reported. At the time there were no flights to Erbil the 'Capital' of Kurdistan and my final destination - long live Austrian Airlines who now are the only scheduled European carrier to fly here... they have put Erbil 'on the map' (after all Erbil is now an available destination on the internet!).
So if you'd like to take one step further and come here (direct via Vienna) to witness first hand a part of Iraq that is 'safe' (there have been no more 'incidents' in Erbil in the last 3 years than there have been in London!), and as 'European' as one can find - with a substantial European based diaspora of entrepreneurs akin to the Lebanese one can find in Europe (Paris in particular) but just less visible... a place where you will find many women in jeans and short sleeve shirts without a veil, driving their own car, and who work/are engaged with the community out of their home - please be my guest.
During the televised Presidential debate in France, Sarkozy being averse to Turkish entry into the EU, actually stated 'do we want the Kurdish problem to become a European problem'... the truth of the matter is that if the UK and France didn't want to 'hide' from historical fact, Mr Sarkozy would be forced to recognise that the two countries are responsible for defining the borders which created the Kurdish problem in the first place and has left a ethnic population of 35 Million souls without a country to call their own since 1916 and the Sykes-Picot agreement!... maybe the 'Grandeur de la France' and that of the UK (wih Blair as special envoy to the Middle East) would be to now fully recognise that mistake and promote a negociated solution with all the parties concerned!
A positive resolution to the Sykes-Picot obvious mistake (after all it not only dealt with the Kurds but also is at the root of the Palestinian problem!) could well serve the case of Turkey in Europe and dissolve the age old problem of the PKK within Turkey and placate the views of Mr Sarkozy and his supporters who can't see the borders of Europe extending to reach the Middle-East... but that of course would take some very real political guts!...
Now may be the time however with the Arab League and Saudi-Arabia hoping to convince that they want to play a constructive role, Iran's involvement throughout the region being an issue at the very top of the worldwide agenda, and Turkey being at the forefront of European connundrums... After all the Kurds are now spread out over Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria - all at the heart of a comprehensive Middle-Eastern solution! No solution will exist without the full engagement of these countries in the process...A determined Blair & Sarkozy axis could well repair our past mistakes and restore the faith this part of the world has in West... a much more effective tool in curbing terrorism and it's underlying causes than the military will evr be wouldn't you say?
Best regards,
J.Jones
Kurds are really just Turks? (as someone said) Oh dear! Plus Turks being in the region since 10th century? Not sure about that... I thought they moved in from Central Asia, displacing Greek Bysantines.
As for Turkey invading Iraq and having a win... maybe... but then Saladin was a Kurd... so it could turn the other way too.
I am not sure how this would affect NATO, if Turkey's pants catch on fire after invading Iraq, would it be NATO's responsibility to pull it out of trouble? Or not?
Mark, what are you doing in Asia? I thought you were the 麻豆约拍 correspondent for Europe and this is your Euroblog.
Turkey is not in Europe and Turks are not European people. Let's not forget this, just because a bunch of European politicians never had the guts to turn down Turkey's EU application.
Dear Mark,
I believe there is a major policy shift in regards to the Kurds and Turkey.
Please have a look at my blog called Hevallo.
In it I have brought to attention the activities of Neo Cons like Michael Rubin and Paul Wolfowitz at the American Enterprise Institute who are lobbying hard for Exxon Mobil for a policy change in regards to the Kurds in favour of Turkey.
Kurdish/Iraqi opposition to making progress on the US's so called 'benchmarks'(Oil laws!),I think has led to the beginning of a major shift in US future policy.
Before the Kurds were the greatest allies but now in Michael Rubins speech to Congress Foreign Affairs Committee they are the enemies of democracy.
Someone thinks I'm on to something because Exxon Mobils lawyers have spent time on my blog.
Maybe the shift has already taken place and the 60,000-200,000 Turkish troops on the Kurdish border are US's Plan B for Kirkuk oil!
Take care out there.
Hevallo
In Turkey Turks and Kurdish people are living together in a peaceful way.PKK is a terrorist action but Europeans are helding PKK in its heart.If we have to stand right against terrorism Where are the Europens?Turkey is a lonely country as well as it is a NATO allien.
one day you comprehend that the Pkk terrorist organization will be your nuisance. the bloddy terrorist organization Pkk is danger more EL Kaida. 30000 soul are search for truth still why we were murdered. we live together with kurds and turks. we marry with eachother. there are not any conflict between kurds and turks in turkey. kurds and turks have fight together in world war I against the barbarian European who want to collapse the ottoman empire. yes you manage this. but dont forget that we are Turks & Kurds will live together in peace. And yes, we want to join EU but you behave disingenuous to us for EU Talks and membership. now in Turkey big scale majority dont believe european union.especially france,germany,denmark,brussel and ofcourse UK. this country's goverment's have helped the bloody terror organization PKK in past. and we know and beliave you will help Pkk in the future. dont worry we know this but we will take measures for this. our armies, goverments and all citizens aware of this traitorous plan. we are muslims and we will die like a muslim. divisive and bloody terror organization pkk never reach their aims like you. real muslims dont kill anyone for god. Allah is donor. vow not to do something like this again and Allah will forgive you for your sins.founder and first president of the Turkish Republic ATAT脺RK says peace in the home peace in the world.this is our principle. but if it is necessary we invade north of Iraq for peace and destroy the Pkk. In the past you divide Iraq but they unite again now you try to divide Iraq again for oil but you will be unsuccess. Musul & Kerkuk is Turkish territory. abandon free Iraq. where is the nuclear facilities in Iraq ? there is in USA, in Israil, in Russia, in France, in UK. not in north Korea, not in Iran, not in Turkey. oneday you will destroy the whole WORLD with your "advanced technology" and "high merit". you must try to be humble.
A ordinary T眉rk from T眉rkiye.
Dear Mark,
thanks for stating the obvious. Please don't be intimidated by the Turkish extremists comments and continue to call an apple "an apple" not an "orange"..
Diyarbakir is a Kurdish city that is for sure. What the Turkish republic does now is pointless. Because in Iraqi Kurdistan, life goes and they are not affected by the Turkish threats.
Turkey can not invade Iraqi Kurdistan because this will spark an uprising in Diyarbakir and other Kurdish cities against the Turkish military.
It's curious that so many people, and in particular, the media paint Turkey as some sort of impending Islamic Empire.
Ataturk did a great job dealing with this many years ago, and significantly the Turkish military have maintained his secular principles in the leadership of the country. The hesitation by Europe to consider Turkey for membership is, in my humble opinion based on the fear of uncertainty, because, as history shows us, Turkey has steadfastly defended the sounthern borders of Europe in line with a 'western' vision. That may be good or bad, depending on one's viewpoint, but Turkey has certainly shown that it can be trusted. If we were to compare their behaviour with some European nations, they are, objectively, near the top of the list when it comes to continued support.
The PKK are, frankly, a terror organisation, and i think it's important to separate their murderous activities from the former oppression of Turkish Kurds by the Turkish Government. The two are different issues, althoughly politically it's advantageous to meld them into one.
The same applies in Russia with the Chechyen Terrorists. Far from being some sort of glamorous freedom fighting entity, as they are so often portrayed in 'western' media, they remain a murderous bunch of thugs, and no romantic notions of idealism can hid this fact.
I don't agree with everything the Turkish military and government do, but i'm the same with current british and american governments too, and i wonder if we need to keep the turkish military's actions in context, of a nation under attack from murderers. They haven't been squeaky clean in their actions, but they are, after all, charged with defending the safety of a nation.
It would be a mistake for Turkey to step into Iraq, but it is also incumbent on the Kurdish people in Iraq and Eastern Turkey to rein in those who murder in their name.
Mark, another thought provoking piece, and i wonder if a consideration for future investigation would be people's views on the disbandment of NATO, to be replaced by a EU/Russian alliance, stretching from the west coast of Ireland to the port city of Vladivostock.
Would this provide a greater long term security and peace for not only Turkey, but the wider region of Russia and Europe as well?
Alex.
A Briton in Moscow.
Dear sir, please look to a scientific publication about the Kurds:
This explains the background that Turks won't tell you.
It's true that there were many civilian deaths in the war between the PKK and the Turkish army. But most of the victims were Kurds and it's not true that lot of Turks were killed or that PKK killed all 39.000 people killed in this conflict. Don't forget the 1.8 million displaced Kurds that can't return to their homes and who live now in the slums of Diyarbakir (Amed). Don't forget the 3000/4000 destroyed villages. See for instance this scientific research link:
Thank you to Mark Mardell and all the respondents. I have learned a lot about this topic by reading just this one blog, and have got a range of perspective as well. This is what the 麻豆约拍 should be doing:setting the scene and doing what it can to provide a balanced range of infromation so that we, the customers, can try and make up our own mind, thank you. Please keep up the good work.
Such articles are specially designed to publicize Turkey as an "invader" while the real "invader", US&UK, are not ever being questioned.
Moreover, Turkey has to intervene to Northern Iraq if necessary, as long as it is a dirty place where PKK camps exist. (I totally agree with the comments of Emily Alp below). Nowadays we have learned that US weapons have been transferred to PKK terrorists,directly or indirectly. That means a threat to Turkey's territory and this country is strong enough to deal with that.
Unity of a country with all its ethnic members is above all, and it is a shame even to discuss that if we are a member of the modern world. And such articles like this one, are nothing but provokative...
Not quite sure if other readers have commented on it, but what Kurds are demanding is nothing but a political settlement similar to that Turkish authorities are seeking in Cyprus. Turks request Cyprus and the EU authorities to recognize the multiethnic character of the region (and their political rights) while failing to do exactly the same in their own State. Kurds are not represented in the Turkish Parliament for a strategic 10% vote threshold in elections was designed to keep them away from seeking a seat. Thus, the AKP party, if it earns just 30- 35% of the votes, it could easily obtain an absolute majority. I comdemn terrorism, but what other alternative are Kurds left to participate in politics?
Regarding Turkey and the EU, it is a very complex issue that won't be solved within the next decades. It will probably be our sons and grandsons who decide on Turkey. One thing I assume as certain, if Turks find a way to reconcile Islam and democratic principles, it will be nearly impossible to shut the door on them. The EU should contribute to promote democratic values in Turkey as Turkey could be a model for other countries interested in following suit. When Turkey is ready, somewhere along the road, we will have to take a decision. Now it is too early to discuss it as we could derail Turkey's democratization project with our disquisitions (e.g. Armenian genocide, Kurdish settlement, Cyprus recognition, etc).
Jos茅 Luis Vel谩zquez de la Hoz from The Netherlands
Recently there were news about an agreement between Turkey and US, due to this agreement Turkey has promised not to launch a military action into Kurdistan and US will offer one billion dollar in return, Turkish prime minister has written to the World Bank that once they receive that money they will pay back a large amount of its debts to the bank.
In any scenarios should these disputes analyzed only one obvious and apparent reality will emerge especially for the Turkish generals which is:
In this era of globalization and in the current situation of Middle East ,Iraq and Kurdistan are strategic grounds to US and Western interests .This fact has significantly changed the political balances between Turkey and US especially in Iraq and Kurdistan .Thus Turkey has understood that taking a military action without taking in consideration for exchanging these balances will be too tough .This fact is pretty well known by Turkish politicians who rule Turkey in addition to the research institutions of this country that is why they are not going under the generals pressure and threats .Particularly now there is a broad rivalry and conflict between Turkey and Iran obtaining biggest share of Iraq and Kurdistan revenues .Turkey alone has 400 companies who work in Kurdistan in addition to taxes and custom of the oil pipelines .In commercial world farness and closeness are of great importance for trade relations specially for heavy products when transportation by planes are impossible.
once a time Turkish state was denying existence of Kurdish nation.it called them as mountain turks. now obligatorily accepting their existence, but denying giving any right to them except some limited rights was given due to EU process. but under this atmosphere I think they can be taken back in just one day..
I also want to pay your attention to logical inconsistency of anti-Kurdish coalition's thoughts. if turks and kurds
are brothers then , kurds in iraq and turks are brothers. then iraqi kurdistan state should be a brother and friend country like azerbaijan.
why dominant powers are against this state under this conditions.. and also why dominant turks are seeing turkomans as their allies agains kurds of iraq despite not having showed any interest to turkomans during sadams torture era???
Also I would like to express my views about first world war. yes turks and kurds fought against invaders (england, France, greece) together but not for turkish nation. they fought for religion (islam), ottoman empire and god. not only kurds but also ordinary turks saw war as a religious war...
someone told that why only half of votes were given to Main Kurdish party. it is answer also is simple.
most of the people in turkey see themselves as Muslim rather then Kurds or Turkish. that is why their choice becomes religious parties.
and also from economic perspective many people prefer ruling party first.
last point is that, if turkey and iraqi kurds are the main servers of US, why they do not respect each other. they have a lot in common also relations with israel???
The reason why they might actually need all 140,000 troops, could be something to do with the type of war that is fought in that part of the world.
While artillery and high tech weponery are good for most conflicts, conflicts that come from insurgents (such as the rest of Iraq) generally require more manpower, and are more prone to turn into long term stays (occupations if you will) if there is no government capable of taking control of the area.
An example from Israel, even with targeted killings of terrorists, without an army presence on the ground the rockets continue.
First of all i would like to say excuse my english as i'm not from a english speaking country and have never lived in one either.
Since when is the ethicity of the population decided by which party they are voting for?
Amed/D卯yarbakir IS a kurdish city and it has been since the time of the medes, the name Amed comes from the Medyan name Amida. The name Amed got changed when Ataturk came to power. Diyarbakir/Amed has always been the central point for kurdish uprisings.
And i don't see how kurds native language is Turkish because as a kurd kurdish is your language, and even Apo speaks kurdish.
When the kurdish language, culture, music and even colors has been forbidden ever since 1920 you can't call it a voluntary integration. Even a turk must see that pan turkism has been forced upon the kurds of northern kurdistan (Southeast turkey)
It is indeed right that turkey is a huge country but let's not forget the fact that half of Turkey would've been Kurdistan if it wasn't for the Brits and French. Turkey is ruled by ultra nationalists that would rather see 35 million kurds dead. So you guys might understand that PKK was not created without a good reason.
The time for empires is no more.
And of course unity n a country is a good thing, and that's why Kurds are uniting more and more. Because Kurds are one people and we live in one Kurdistan that's been separated by 4 countries.
But turks can never force unity on a whole ethnicity look were that brought turkey..30 years of war and over 30 000 people dead 4000 kurdish villages have been destroyed. PKK is the only line of defense kurds has against a military that is ready to do anything to ethnically cleanse Kurdistan and it's population.
If Turkey were to invade northern Iraq, then the Iraqis would treat them as invaders an it would not just be theKurds that Turkey was up against, but the whole of Iraq, probably with the Iraq army fighting against them.
Is there a job to be done in N.Iraq is the base of your blog entry. Would a 'fanciful' land invasion achieve anything?
PKK starting out in 84 was all but completely destroyed both politically by the capture of its head Ocalan and on the field by a Turkish hybrid of special forces and mountain troops. These special forces were active both inside Turkey but in various N.Iraq passages at time supported by various size air strikes and full scale army deployments into N.Iraq. These were possible due to a deal between 2 countries to cooperate against terrorism.
As a result the physical terror of PKK was extinguished back around 1999 and there was NO bombings or terrorist activities since then attributed to or claimed by PKK.
Following the US invasion, N.Iraq has once again become a no mans land where no authority but the gun works. Various Kurdish factions do not take action against the PKK to not alienate its supporters. Hence with the free flow of weapons from both Saddam's old caches and the US well-meaning-but-clueless Iraqi Army recruitment policies PKK has had an opportunity to rearm itself and restart its terrorist activities after 7-8 years of peace.
Flawed US policies have turned a whole country into terrorist breeding ground. With an Atlantic to cross the Americans have it easy but Turkey who sits in the neighborhood has to take corrective action.
So yes there is a job to be done, one that can actually be attained.
Turkey was successful in rooting out Kurdish terrorism in the past and it can do so again.
As can be seen from some of the comments, to live in Turkey is to be 'programmed' by the media. There is so much misinformation about the PKK and the Kurdish Freedom Struggle that it is difficult to untangle it.
The PKK carry the hopes of the 15-20 million Kurds in Turkey (or most of them) Without the PKK Kurdish people could not be able to call themselves Kurdish, as the stated policy of past Turkish governments was 'forced assimilation' to become 'Mountain Turks'.
Mass forced displacements and atrocities against the Kurds in Turkey has led to over 28 Kurdish uprisings, the PKK's being the 29th!
The Turkish authorities continuing policy is one of denial and have refused any negotiations or political resolution of The Kurdish Question. They continue to treat The Kurdish Question as one of 'fighting terrorism'. The shame is that so many outside of Turkey readily accept this.
Please find more links/info about the struggle of the Kurdish people on my blog:
The simple facts are:
1. Turkey has the 8th strongest military in the world. The military is trained for dealings with other large super power militaries. The pkk are mosquitos. In 6 hours Turkey could see to it that northern iraq is bombed back to the stone age.
2. Turkey will have international support no matter what it decides since the pkk is labeled as a terrorist organization by Turkey, US, and EU.
3. Turkey will do as it pleases in northern iraq. This isn't the first time that Turks are crossing that border. The thought of some mountain monkey known as barzani trying to tell Turkey what not to do is pretty funny.
4. The Iranians have also began shelling northern iraq. This is pretty much overkill...
Dear Mark,
Thanks for another nice article.
Here is the outline of what seems to me like a sensible way forwards. It would be interesting to hear what experts and people living in the area think about it.
1. The US should arrange serious talks between the Iraqi Kurds and the Turkish government. These talks should lead to cooperation between the two parties in stopping PKK activities on the Iraqi side.
2. Turkey should take a step back and reconsider its strategy for dealing with the PKK. It seems that, whatever they are doing, they have tried it for the last few decades without success. A better model would be the British-Irish approach to dealing with the IRA.
A European
"A place where you will find many women in jeans and short sleeve shirts without a veil, driving their own car, and who/work and engaged with the community out of their home"
J Jones.
I didn鈥檛 know the veil is troubling you even in the Middle East. In Pakistan and Bangladesh both had female Muslim prime ministers and both were veiled. It鈥檚 even inconceivable in many European countries for women to become prime ministers while the most populous Muslim nation i.e. Indonesia had a female president.
Wearing jeans and short sleeves is a not a prerequisite for women to work and engage with their community.
Dear Mark,
Gobekli Tepe demonstrates an extraordinary history dating back 12,000 years. The people who built this centre of religious pilgrimage spoke neither Turkish or Kurdish, and undoubtedly prayed to a god who's name was neither God or Allah.
The original historic inhabitants, the Hittites, Phrygians, Lydians and other Anatolian peoples were Indo-Europeans who spoke Indo-European languages. The Turks speak Altaic and the Kurds speak Indo-Iranian, indicating that both groups migrated into the region at sometime in their history, undoubtedly displacing those they found.
History would suggest that they probably won't be the last.
With our world entering a period of instability due to climatic changes and the associated economic, political and social upheavals, we will all be tested to the maximum.
Those who survive will be those who can stand united against the many problems to be faced. The alternative will be degenerate savagery, marked by genocide and other acts of inhumanity.
In this future, and make no mistake, our gods and national flags will divide us, and not unite us.
The Turks and Kurds, and not forgetting the Assyrians and Arabs, need to learn to live together, or they will certainly perish together.
And they still need to demonstrate that they are worthy custodians of perhaps humanities earliest centre of 'humanity', Gobekli Tepe.
Kevin Haynes
I am disappointed to see some senseless arguments regarding the Kurdish issue. I would like to clarify a few things for our European Friends. In Turkey, most people who consider themselves to be 鈥楾urks鈥 are not necessarily racially-ethnically a homogenous group. In fact most 鈥楾urks鈥 a re mixture of Central Asian Turkic Peoples, Ancient Anatolian Peoples, people from the Balkans and the Caucus, Arabs, Persians, Greeks, Armenians and of course Kurds. 鈥 among many others. (By the way, the people of Anatolia were not 鈥榙isplaced鈥 by Turkic invaders, as some commenters whish to believe so they can disregard Turkish association with the people that formed 鈥楥radle of western civilization鈥 and support racist arguments about how Turks don鈥檛 belong in Europe鈥ut that鈥檚 another argument for Rob and Ronald Grunebaum)
In Turkey, the word 'Turk' is not used as a racial-ethnic classification, it designates civic nationality. By that rationale, a Laz, a Circassian, an Arab, or a Kurd are all considered Turkish.One assumption that Europeans make when looking at the Kurdish debate in Turkey, is they take racial distinctions as a given-because it is such a prevalent notion in western societies. Lack of ethnic classifications has to do with the Ottoman 鈥榤illet鈥 system where people were not classified ethnically or racially, but by religion, so they could be administered by their respective religious institution. In this system, all Muslims were effectively placed on a single category, colloquially referred to as 鈥楾urks.鈥 Even today official, recognized minorities in Turkey are Religious minorities(Orthodox Christians, Jews etc..) while Kurds are Muslim and are not legally or traditionally considered minorities, rather treated as a part of the mainstream Muslim population.
Basically Kurds in Turkey have exactly the same rights and obligations as any other citizen of Turkey, and are not provided the special privileges given to officially recognized RELIGIOUS MINORITIES. There is no discrimination, and we have had all sorts of politicians, presidents, ministers, businessmen, artists, generals of Kurdish ethnicity. Now, since the concepts of race do not manifest in Turkey in the same manner as in Europe, we have tended to place less emphasis on ethnic distinctions. This is the reason why assimilation of ethnic groups in Turkey are very high 鈥 including much of the Kurdish population. This may also explain why Turks have a problem with making distinctions between the average Turkish population and Kurds (hence the term 鈥榤ountain Turks鈥)
while a westerner just assumes Turks are a homogenous group occupying Kurdish lands. Ofcourse Anatolia has never had a homogenous population,and Kurds were never alone in Anatolia - they just have to accept that fact and live peacefully with everybody else. Ofcourse language cultural rights are another story, kurdish is no longer banned, and people can advocate for other rights through legitimate chanels. Nobody murders innocent civilians for cultural rights...that kind of behaviour indicates a much more sinister objective.
ZIMON,- I don鈥檛 understand why you ave a problem when people say Kurds and Turks are brothers- Either you prefer that they hate each other for some perverted reason, or you have an irrational dislike for Turks and need to criticize every position they take. There is no logical inconsistency, Iraqi Kurds are Iraqi, Turkish ones are Turkish (pretty simple.) We have no problems with Kurds in Iraq, we provided refuge to many of them during Saddam era. However, as long as they harbour the PKK and play the ethnic card in our territory, we would be forced play the same game, by supporting Turkmen..
Jos茅 Luis Vel谩zquez de la Hoz- no sentence should start with 鈥業 condemn terrorism, BUT.鈥 You either condemn it or you don鈥檛, there鈥檚 no 鈥業F鈥檚 or 鈥楤UT鈥檚. You ask 鈥榃hat OTHER alternatives are Kurds left to participate in politics?鈥 First of all terrorism is not an ALTERNATIVE to Political Participation. And secondly the answer is pretty obvious, the alternative to political participation IS Political participation. There is a Kurdish party that the Kurds, and the non-Kurds can vote for鈥nd most 鈥楰urds鈥 PARTICIPATE by NOT voting for the Kurdish party, and choosing a party which they believe would bring more prosperity.
Some people here need Turkish History Lesson...
1)Turks established in anatolia in 1071 with MALAZG陌RT WAR (POOR BYZANT陌NE)
2)Turks is the first nation who established military in bc 209...And still has the 1 of the most powerfull army in the entire world....So an operation in northern iraq is piece of cake for TURKS..
3)The reason Turks still hasnt enter the northern iraq is elections and the goverment which is clearly puppet of US AND EU...
4)90 percent of citizens here supports an operation..Some people talks like its not supported by local residents..Lol @ that person...
5)Turk has no friend besides Turk..
Kevin Haynes, it is generally known that the Kurdish language is Indo European and that the Kurdish people have been in that region far longer than the Turks. If someone knows Kurdish it is much easier for the learn English than it is for a Turk. The Kurdish calendar starts from 612BC after the fall of the Assyrian Empire.
Mark, you have always been an excellent journalist and I am a regular Newsnight watcher.
In response to your blog we have Kurds saying what one would expect Kurds to say and Turks saying what one would expect Turks to say. What concerns me most is the spouting of some Brits who clearly have no understanding of the history or the current reality of the situation.
Amed is historically Kurdish and yet I found fear amongst Kurds there. The PKK is a particularly nasty bunch so they are in good company with the Turkish military high command and their special service units.
As a Scot who has been heavily involved with the Kurdish community for some seven years, I was welcomed into the heart of a family each time I visited. I saw the reality and there is very clearly an impression that Kurds are second class citizens. The further east you travel, the more dismal it gets and that is not coincidence. Erdogen has made some reforms but it is still easy to see why PKK can recruit so easily.
Even in Ankara I was told by a Turkish friend not to sing in Kurdish language in a bar for fear we would all be arrested as recently as 2002. Freedom as citizens?
As for the Turkish military leadership's intentions in South Kurdistan, how about an attempt to destabilise the KRG and destroy the first fledgling Kurdish state?
I am a Scot with not one drop of Kurdish blood in my veins so why did I arrive at the conclusions I have? I went out there and witnessed the reality of the situation having seen some disturbing interaction between the two peoples here in Britain.
On July 23rd it will still not be the party that won the election that will be running Turkey, it will be the judge and jury in such matters, the Turkish military high command and a select band of retired generals.
Keep on reporting Mark.
"The original historic inhabitants, the Hittites, Phrygians, Lydians and other Anatolian peoples were Indo-Europeans who spoke Indo-European languages. The Turks speak Altaic and the Kurds speak Indo-Iranian, indicating that both groups migrated into the region at sometime in their history, undoubtedly displacing those they found."
Dear Kevin,
You made a little mistake : the Indo-Iranian languages are a subdivision of the Indo-European languages. Thus 'Kurds' speak 'Indo-European languages' and are Indo-Europeans too.
I completely agree with you, "our gods and national flags will divide us, and not unite us.".
From Heidelberg,
Hewar.
I do not understand that:
Turkey occupies the land of Kurds. Don't they have the right to have their homeladn free?
And let's not foget, Turks came in the area about seven centuries ago of Far East!
As far as I read the comments ,every person has the different views.But I personally believe that America is not a country which all of the people like it so much.Cos in the past and (even now) many people were persecuted by Americans.We can see this phenomenon in every part of world.
So,British and American people must initially talk about their past before they criticize the other countries.
All the best
There are many ethnic groups in Turkey and they all live in peace, so why some Kurdish people can not manage it must be a question?
If we,Turks, gave any privileges to Kurdish people, we would have to give the same to many other ethnic groups living in Turkey and then there wouldn't be Turkey.
These are such complex issues that they can not be talked about based upon some photos or utterances of a few people and at the same time they are very open to provokation, so I hope all people living in Turkey will be sensible and sensitive enough to cope with this issue peacefully.
" Our nation has succeeded owing to the unshakable unity it has shown in its actions and endeavours." by the great leader Mustafa Kemal Atat眉rk
At once, As Jack Straw (UK foreign secretary) also pointed out (you may see it in the big and endless problems were created by the western world mostly.
As imperial power once, UK was responsible creating the problems and now USA does that. Of course, with help of Blair.
My step-grandmother is Armenian origin. Armenians now are seen as enemies by Turkish nationalists. But my grandmother also says that, Armenians were in good terms with Turkish people before 1900's. It's historical truth that Greek people used to be in key positions in Ottoman Empire era. There had not been any problem with the Kurds living in Turkey before the 1920s.
France encouraged Armenians by promising to create their ancient empire, UK created problem between Greek people and Turkish people by helping the Greeks and Israel&USA helped Kurds to fight against us. And vice versa is also true, they all fooled Turkish people to take Kurds,Greeks and Armenians as our enemies.
Lately Turkish foreign secretary and prime minister stated PKK (I dont call them Kurdish rebels, because they also kill Kurds who doesn't support them) is using USA made guns. That same USA selling guns to Turkey and we have spent 100 billion $ for guns.
Not just Kurds but entire Iraqi people will act together against Turks? Where were they against Saddam together? How come they cannot act together now and form a unity government? If they interact so well together why does the current Iraqi government do not want US to leave?
Turkish army does not want to invade. Want to go in and clean the terrorist camps. They are in Iraq and Iraq's responsibility. If a country does not act on a terrorist organization living freely on its territory maybe it should be labelled as a terrorist country as US and Bush administration has defined it. Isn't that what Taliban regime was accused for? Because they did not touch Al Qaeda.
War is not pleasant, nobody should thrive for war. But nobody can ignore the fact indefinitely. What would US do if a certain Mexican group filtrated to Texas, New Mexico, Arizona or California and placed landmines on public roads killing US citizens and army personnel everyday?
First of all, I totally agree with Bozuk.
All I would like to add is: There had not been any conflict until the US started its dirty game in this part of the world. People are always easy to be deceived and provoked with the idea of racism. That's what happened in Turkey. "Somebody" came and deceived Kurds in Turkey for his own interests. It may sound like a "fairytale" but reading some history may help those who don't believe me.
I really have no idea about the future. But I am certainly sure that if ever a Kurdish country is founded, it wouldn't only be Turkey's problem. There would be a chaos in Middle East, and that would directly effect -like a contagious disease- Europe as well. So, when supporting a terrorist organization one has to consider the consequences. That's what European governors don't care.
I think this is enough.
from ottoman empire to turkey,our relationship with other nations were always fine.we were not torturing citizens of empires which we fight and we were not preventing them from exercising their relation.on the other hand,we are behaving an armenian or an arab in the same way But by french revoliton,nations which in ottoman empires have started to rebel due to russia,england and some other nations as a neccesity of a good strategy;divide and govern.today all of uf familiar with this strategy by the help of the USA.they divided 谋raq as turkmens kurds and arabs and to provide a relationship to all of them america help them.what a helpful country.but in addition to this assistance they also help to govern 谋raq and his policy.today this game is being played on kurds.there is only thing i know if america establish a country to kurds, they will be slaver of america because if america will have no profit from sth in more than one way,it tries to avoid it
I fell sorry for those who only know one language; language of force and violence. If you deny the facts, you full yoursely. Why don't you have the courage to admit one fifth of the population of turkey is Kurd? Why are you afraid to aknowledge 1.5 million Armenian killed to turkish army? Untill when you can hide 5000 burned down to ground Kurdish villeges in the East (Kurdistan)? Believe me if you want a stronge country, you have to show you are a real democrat.
I believe that this situation could solve many years ago but that time there was no Al-Kaide and terrorist attacks all over the world. Turkey is kind of middle of the horizon. Whatever happens there it affects every country. One thing makes Turks very angry and crazy. Supporting the PKK terrorist group and not seeing the truths. If Mexico attacks every day the U.S. border what would happen? I tell you this would be a war against terror but the same problem that is called massacre and killing its own people(Kurds) for what? -Freedom! Yes, I am a stupid person who does not know anything about social rights and history of this lands. The citizens should be aware of the Game(like movie) and become together, nor nationalist should not say "love or die" or whatever their thoughts for Kurdish people. Being a big country is not easy and will not be very easy either.So just do not make Turks' domestic and country politic issues hard and let the country live forever.
The reason why Turkey needs 140,000
troops is clearly down to quality. In turkey, like many countries in that region, conscription is the full force of their military. They have massive numbers of land forces, clearly the quantity but not the quality so huge numbers are needed to amount any form of effective assault.
History has also shown us that what Turkey wants, Turkey always gets through invasion. They seem to lack dialogue and polictical settlement and would rather jump in feet first and again, according to history, suffer no consequences later either.
The Americans may wince a bit at any decision by Turkey, but Turkey knows that the US would rather keeps it bases there and will once again turn a blind eye.
Somebody said invasion?
Let me tell you what invasion is: Invasion is what USA is doing on Iraq without any justified reason. Of course everybody knows that it is for US politics and theories in attempt to conquer energy resources around the globe, and the armor companies dominating their politics. By the way, UK has been supporting them.
Let me tell you about another invasion. In 1918 after World War, Britain, France, Italy and Greece invaded Turkey. What were they doing there. Fighting for freedom? What were British doing in India? What was US doing in Phillipines? What were French doing in Africa?
If you want to learn about the history of invasion, you should read about imperialism. You may just read . See, the most of the article is about English and French!
Thousands of our people have been killed by PKK. Turkey is just defending himself. And you can be sure that, 100% of Turkish people (the people who live in Turkey) will do whatever it takes to defend the country.
This is so simple. They always did that, provoke, divide and conquer. You see they did it to Iraq now. They formed three groups in Iraq hating each other.
Civilization means information and knowledge without prejudgement. Some of the comments (like "Turkey lack dialogue") are so wrong and illeterate. You can not have a correct opinion, if you don't bother to have some knowledge.
If leaders of Iraq want to get tranquility and calmness, they should first drive away USA out of their country and stop feeding PKK with weapons. Else, they are betraying their own people.
i just want to clear up one thing about the turkish military. dnt be fooled by the number of troops at the border, someone mentioned that all turkey has its soldiers. the turkish military is one of the best trained in the world, it has one of the best air and naval forces to. along with probably the best trained special forces units. if you dnt believe just check history, u dnt have to go that far back, korean war anyone?? the quality is there my friend its just there in numbers. unlike most nations.
as a turk who was born and raised in england i have always had a feeling that the world hates us. why because throughout history our ancestors had a knack for invading and winning wars. so is it my fault that 1000 years ago a kurd, greek, armenian or arab lost a war against a bunch of nomads from the east. these ppl cant except the fact "you lost the war" this means you dnt have right in that land. i dnt hear turks ramble about giving us back our ottoman lands. you never hear a turk go on about how jerusalem, baghdad, damascus and cairo should be ours. the kurds can ramble all they want, the pkk are terrorists, all that support them are terrorists. if the US can travel thousands of miles to seek out al-queda we have all the right in the world to cross over our border and wipe out the pkk for good. i hate the fact the world see's us as agressors when we have been one of nato's most loyal members; but i guess when your a turk whatever you do is deemed to be evil and wrong.
I was reading this forum and was really surprised by all the disinformation and crazy interpretations from the linguistic theories, etc. What made me sorry is that to see people writing with hatred. And also there are some comments from the Europeans, etc. telling their comments as some sort of facts leading to funny, ignorant entries. Anyway, well I am a Turkish and I have many Kurdish friends around me who are able to say they are just kurdish.
Turkish people entered Anatolia a millennium before and until the end of Ottoman Empire there were no problems between two nations. After the set up of nation state problems began and this is about just 80 years. One must see the difference between 80 years and a millenium.
During that time we already lost our old Central Eastern identity, because we were very much mixed with Anatolian nations, Arabs and some Europeans, etc.
Anyway, there are two ways to the resolution of this confliction, which are quite utopist:
a) Abolish the notion Turkish and Kurdish and create one identity Anatolian. We are living in the land of Anatolia and I can say I am an Anatolian as a Turkish and a Kurdish should say this also.
Turkish and Kurdish must be 2 official Anatolian languages equally behaved.
Each nations or societies must criticize oneself before attacking the other. Turkish must accept this with toleration and Kurdish must focus on changing their very bad traditions, organization of their societies.
There must be many things to be written.
Let's come to option b:
b) Then to the kurdish nationalists:
Then OK, have your piece of land. But then as a Turkish I do not want any Kurdish living in the cities of Turkey. You will all go away.(Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir, etc.)
I don't want any companies, any business in which Kurdish are involved. The university degrees of all Kurdish must be cancelled, deleted from the records of the universities in Turkey.
Destroy the infrastructure made by the state in these given cities.
Simply let Kurdish go without any violence and erase any sign left from them. Close all of the borders to these new Kurdish territory, stop every kind of relation.
Go and live in your ultimately boring "Amed", and your Barzani. Throughout the history we had many and much much better up to Ataturk.
What is going to happen?
The Turkish state and people is going to be much prosperious, the country develop much faster and we are not going to have any problems from the east and the Kurdish state will more or less develop like a weak puppet Arab state, maybe also some civil wars due to the desire to capture the authority. Actually even worse due to their religious roots and traditions of ashiret, etc.
PKK now exists because thanks to Ataturk who changed the system and education and Ocalan had the opportunity to have this education(the only bad thing here is that it is Turkish, no Kurdish option)
About the Armenian genocide, the general objective historical approach is the massive killings due to the marauding "Turkish and Kurdish" bands during the Armenian's move to Syria.
Namely, not only Turkish, Kurdish also.
For the comment of Dion Nicoleu.., yes Ottoman invaded your land, but you were free in your language and religion, I think you didn' have any problems. At least we were better than your own leader Cavusesku.
The European Union progress, Europeans should know that I as a Turkish do not accept European identity or something like it. Our history is much brighter, we didn't colonize the rest of the world and talk about democracy without any shame. Do you ever mind questions like Where are the people of North America, Where are the languages of Latin America? What did the French and Belgians do in Congo? Did you read the book of Conrad?(The Heart of Darkness) What did you do to the Jewish in the heart of your land? I don't accept this history, this is enough of a shame.
Well, Ottoman governed the lands of Greek, Arabs,Romanian, Serbian, Hungarian, etc. They still exist now with all their cultural identities.
So, let me say it high and proud, I am an Anatolian(Turkish) not a European.
Cengizhan #44, as I said around here, posession is 9 tenths of the law. Indeed what Turks conquered and held on to is theirs... until someone else invades and takes them over :) After all, fair is fair, and you can not exactly complain about others doing onto you, as you have done onto them... but probably NOT any time soon...
Where your argument fails is those parts of the former Ottoman empire that still have dominant original population. As happened to the Ottomans in most of Europe, the Greeks, the Serbs/Croats, and the others kicked them out... so should still happen in Kurdistan. Simply, the difference is that in Kurdistan the Kurds still remain and want their land back, while in contrast Western Turkey has been successfuly Turkified.
So, you tell me, is it fair for the Kurds to get their land back considering they still live there?
Similarly you can not expect to get Greece back for Turkey, or Egypt, or other lands... because as you said, in the end YOU lost those wars.
There is not hate here, just competing business and wants, and some unsettled scores for the Kurds and others. Once these are resolved, I am sure everyone can live as friends, as has happened in Europe.
P.S. I do not know who PKK are exactly. I do know that for example the resistance in France or partisans in Poland were also called terrorists by the Nazis during WWII when they killed their soldiers. You see, it is a matter of perspective, and propaganda of one side against the other.
as a kurdish people we never resist for being kurd and seeking our right in turkey and we are always kurd and we live and die as kurd , we have had enough and we can not tolerate this anymore,today our people are awake and we hope turkey not intervene north of iraq(kurdistan) because kurdish people are thirsty of freedom as you see the safest place in iraq is the north of iraq(kurdistan), so any military operation by turkey would cause a bloody war against turkey extremists, and they will lose the war because today kurdish people are awake and we dont care how much strong they are, we want to live as human not being treated as second class citizen, torture us and ban us from our rights, we have got our land,languge,calture and tradition which totally different from turkish people, as kurdish we want to solve the problems by dialogue between both side but turkish troops keep threatening to intervene kurdistan regional goverment on the pretext existing pkk in the region which is just propaganda.
It's a historic fact that everybody lived peacefully under the Ottoman rule until the end of the 19th. century.
The imperialist and colonist, later becoming racist Europeans, especially English, Dutch, German, French, Spanish and Portugese, as well as Russians (Countries are listed in order of aggression) started lodging themselves wherever they could in the globe and then started sucking the life (natural recources and manpower) out of these lands.
Ottoman Empire was in the crossroads of this setup and its existence becoming a major roadblock, especially after the OIL was discovered in Ottoman lands.
Great Britain had deployed their own infamous "divide & rule" politics on Ottoman Empire. At the same time, freshly done French Revolution helped the British cause a great deal as it was setting an excellent example for what GB wanted to do for Ottoman Empire.
They uprised Arabs, Greeks and other Balkan nations to establish their independence from OE.
By the time the WW-I came along, they really cranked up this policy and they went after other possible nations which can be revolted within to really break up Turkey.
Armenians and Kurds were on the top of the list. That's why in Sevres, there's a land "given" to Armenians and wonder why there was no "kurdistan"? Because British could not found a "speaker" or "leader" or any sort of figure head to bring to Paris in 1919 in order to name a slice from the pie called Turkey as of then Ottoman Empire was pretty much already gone. They however did not forget to name the region "kurdistan" for future use, because they knew the kurds can be organized in the future, but they had no time to accomplish that before Sevres.
Turkey gained its independence through a truly remarkable and amazing war against the occupying allied forces as well as sold out traitor Ottoman Istanbul government (the sultan himself) and established the new Republic of Turkey.
Well, years passed by, Germans yet started another major conflict, killed millions of Europeans and Jews, yet forgiven for what they had done, but Turkey remained in a strategic land that Europeans have been eyeballing for centuries. Of course, Turks are being muslims, was just a bonus as far as reasons why Turkey has to be eliminated or reduced to nothing.
So, since late 60's, Europe's efforts to break up Turkey have been intensifying. Armenians, Kurds and now Turkish Islamists (actually money and power, together named as religion.) have been used as pawns to accomplish this dream.
Fatih Mehmet The Conqueror thought a lesson in human rights back in 1453 by allowing the main Greek and Armenian churches in Istanbul. That's why they still exist in Istanbul. We all know what happened in Spain. Turks have been living in harmony with every nation and religion ever since. Even we accepted large numbers of exiled Jews from Europe twice, thousands of Afghans escaping from Russian red army and over a million Kurds running from Saddam's forces back in 90-91.
...to be continued.
Dear All
I think we should establish some facts about Turks/Kurds before making some comments. Whoever thinks that Kurds are second class citizen in Turkey, lives in la la land. Leaders, from Kurdish background, have been elected as PM and even as the President of Turkey (Turgut Ozal). The kurds have exactly the same right as Turks.
Has anybody ever heard that a patient has ever been denied health care, because of his/her Kurdish background, by any hospital?
Has anybody ever heard that a bread maker has ever denied selling bread to people from Kurdish background?
Has anybody ever heard that someone, from Kurdish background, has been denied the right to buy & sell property/land in Turkey?
Has anybody ever heard that anyone has ever been denied the right to have a passport, driving licence because of his ethnic origin?
Having established some facts, now we can ask what the kurds want. Clearly having same rights as Turks and carrying same citizenship card is not enough for them. They want a piece of land, they want to bring down Turkish flag for which millions have given their lives. Sorry but you can have the same rights as me, you can do the same job as me, you can use the same bank as me, you can benefit from the same hospital as me but you can NOT and will NOT have 鈥榓n inch of Turkish Land鈥.
If the US &UK can invade Iraq that is thousands of miles away from their border Turkey has & will have every single right to invade Iraq for its own safety. The kurds have been lucky because of the fact that AKP party has been in power far too long. AKP鈥檚 only agenda is 鈥業slam鈥 but now the game is over on Sunday, whether they are re-elected or not, they will not be able to play 鈥業slam鈥 game any longer.
The generals, from the army鈥檚 official web site, openly warned those who are against secularism. Not only is it army鈥檚 duty to protect secularism but also the long well-being of Turkey.
Turkey may have some problems in its economy, may have some others problems it needs sorting out, but my friends do not, I repeat, do not ever underestimate the power of Turkish army. It wouldn鈥檛 take 24 hours for Turkey to remove Northern Iraq from the map!
Barzani will learn his lesson and the fact that he can鈥檛 hide behind the lady鈥檚 skirts forever.
the truth is in the northern iraq that ;
Kurdish militias doing ethnic cleansing against Turkmens, Arabs and others to make sure nortnern iraq population stay kurdish.......!
Kurds forcing arabs, muslims, christians, Turkmens to leave the area so that they can bring their own people and make sure nortnern iraq become Kurdish and free of other ethnic groups !
but we don't see this reallity on the western media very often !
How can people be so naive, Kurds might have killed 37,000 of the Turkish troops, but there have also been more than 500,000 Kurds killed in all four pieces of Kurdistan. Turkey seems only to be looking at the PKK, but how about the Kurds that were oppressed by Saddam Hussein and whoms government (the Ba'ath party)started the anfal campaign against the Kurds where 100,000 of my people were killed. How about the 500,000 that were left homeless. Yet the Kurds have had a Kurdish parliamnet since 1991 and now have their own federal government in Iraq, which is by the way recognized by the whole world appart from Turkey. And the only reason why Kurds have killed as many as they have, is because they were an oppressed population not only inside of Turkey, but also in Iraq, Iran and Syria. Ask any psyciatrist, what a child would do, when parents put too many barriers on them (in other words if a child were oppressed). We have had 500,000 soldiers and innocent people killed for the city of Kirkuk and now Turkey wants to take it away from us. Turkey does not understand that for the past 20 years all we have tried to do is solve this problem peacefully, yet Turkey is naive enough and closed minded enough, not to even recognize Kurds in this world. Who are the Kurds you ask? Well we are the 70,000,000 people without a country, which have suffered for hundreds of years, because of politics and politricks, I think it is enough and we deserve some peace, in this so called democratic world of today. I hope the citizens of this world will gain some sympathy for us rightful human beings of this earth. We are Gods creatures too.
I read almost all the comments in full and they appear to cover a wide spectrum which is good and thought provoking. However, I can't help thinking that overall the general argument doesn't do much in the way of overcoming the old maxim 'DIVIDE UND IMPERA'. Unfortunately we are blinded with all these arguments in these times of much needed unity and remain susceptible to all sorts. Are we not all human beings who have to share the same future and a world which is constantly getting smaller? These small ideals are costing us much in terms of human values. I am in support unity and harmony in the region where sex, race, religion and age difference is not on the way of mutual respect and harmony. Ability to appreciate is much needed.
Modern and Secular Country,Great Turkey.
We believe our Beutiful country and Great Leader ATATURK.We never forget him.
"This nation has never lived without independence. We cannot and shall not live without it. Either independence or death."
Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
What is abundantly clear in many of these postings is the "persistent" misconception regarding the Turks on the part of some of our Western friends as well as some prevalining prejudices! First of all it is most pivotal to enlighten people about the fact that the Turkish Republic does not wage a war against the 'Kurds" or "Turkish Kurds" but rather against a most bloody separatist terrorist organization; PKK often compared to the equally bloody Shining Path separatist movement in Peru.
Foolish romanticism of the PKK; a relic of the Cold War days, a Marxist - Leninist Terror Organization, is pointless in light of that fact that had the Turkish Kurds been unhappy within Turkey as a result of their sheer numbers, about 20% of the total population, no force in Turkey would have been capable of containing such an intense move towards separation. Ironically the PKK as it stands right now is viewed by most Turks not as a Marxist-Leninist organization but rather an instrument of a resurgent Western Imperialism along the lines of the "divide and rule" foreign policy. How soon so many see to have forgotten about almost total devastation of Lebanon by Israel as a result of the abduction of two of its conscripts?
Turkey has lost well over one hundred people to PKK terrorism in recent history! Anyone borne in Turkey is considered a citizen on an equal footing. Hundreds of thousands of Kurdish Turks fully assimilated in the Turkish society pursuing most lucrative career paths are a testament to the fairness of the system.
The only Kurdish Turks who may justifiably claim to suffer from discrimination are the Separatist Terrorists!
A country said that a terror group attacked its city(New york) and they hide in Iraq,and they said that country(Iraq owned bombs)and they said that they cant accept it and they came to Iraq,invaded and tortured and killed thousands of people and then they said that:o we couldnt find any bombs..what did they gained in return?endless problems in that area.
A country(France)did horrible things in africa,in Algeria,in Congo and yet this country never accepts it
and says sorry...how come?
Millions of Red Indians are killed,their lands are taken,no one says sorry...
Europeans came to Africa and used their lands,made them slaves,and taught them christianity,and in returned what did they gain back?
They still liver under poverty and still their resources are being used.
A county used nuclear bombs and killed millons of people and did they every said they are sorry?
Turkey has the right to defend itself against all attacks either its from inside or outside.
Ronald Grunebaum's comment is quite idiotic! On all websites -from news to travel agencies - Turkey is always included in Europe, NOT Asia or the Middle East as he suggests. He really must pay coser attention!
The Kurds have been stood over for a long time and only want independence from the Turks and the Iraqi's. There will never be peace in Iraq until it is split into three countries one Sunni one Shi-ite and one Kurdish. The Turks should cooperate and help establish a safe place for Kurds even if it means giving up "territory", and not keep hunting Kurds for wanting what we all desire...national freedom. The unrest in the area arise from the maps drawn up by departing colonists as the last act of malice in their colonial divide and rule agenda's.
First of all,the terms of PKK and kurds are not the same.PKK is a terrorist organisation which attack to kill Turks.Most of the Iraqi kurds support PPK in order to have a country named Kurdistan.The guns and weapons of PPK are supplied from European countries.A proverb is said by Turks for ages "Turks have no friends except themselves".I am telling to the Kurds who want a country named Kurdistan :"just back off from the lands of Turkey and stop killing people!"."Why do the kurds in north Iraq force the Turks and Arabs to leave their homes?Why do the kurds in north Iraq bomb the locations which turkmen nation lives?What a kind of way is it to show as if the population of Kurds is in high rate.Is it islamic to kill innocent people?"
Turks did a goodness to the peshmerga by accepting them to Turkey ,government helped and fed the peshmerga during the first Iraq war but peshmerga did badness to Turks and Turkey by being terrorists.
Of course almost all the ethnic conflicts that afflicts the cotemporary Middle East, Africa, and South Asia in some way have origin in the colonial politics of the 19th and 20th centuries.
Moreover, Turks have no right to oppress the Kurds, who have a distinct identity and culture although the violence by PKK can also be not appreciated. It is high time Turks think about ending their chauvinism and giving Kurds their legitimate rights.
hi..i just basicly do not understand why 麻豆约拍 still calling PKK(or whoever involving violance in Turkey)as Kurdish Rebels...pkk is a terorist grup clasified by NATO and EU..i am turkish and my wife is a kurdish and we do not have a problem against kurdish but pkk.would you be happy if somebody calls london bombers as arabic rebels instead terorists...regards
Thank you, Mark Mardell and your 麻豆约拍 crew, for these great reports from Turkey and Kurdistan.
I wonder if Mark happened upon any mirages while in those parts. Mirages are said to be optical illusions caused by the sun shining off glassy sands. It's funny that in the desert the most common mirage is of water, as if the most valued necessity for human existence flashes itself before us in the very place where we need it most. I wonder if perhaps mirages are not optical as much as psychological illusions. Maybe in this border between Turkey and Iraqi Kurdistan people might soon see a Switzerland mirage.
Nationalism can nourish like an oasis in the desert, or it could be an illusion that withers one's true reality. The comic George Carlin describes the problems that happen when people start creating groups: "First of all, I like people. One by one, I think they鈥檙e great 鈥 for about a minute ... I don鈥檛 like the grouping. It鈥檚 when they group that bothers me 鈥 the clotting. People-clotting is what causes the trouble. As soon as it鈥檚 about eight or 12 guys, they start having a fight song or a slogan, or they give themselves a name and buy baseball hats, or they get jackets with their name on it and they wear little arm bands, and pretty soon they got a list of people they don鈥檛 like, and pretty soon they鈥檙e marching over in the park 鈥 and it鈥檚 a danger. Groups are a danger. They sacrifice their individual beauty for the sake of the group. And the loss of the individual is tragic."
When I see Turks either deny the distinctiveness of Kurds ("they're just Mountain Turks") or wallpaper over Kurdish roots with the easy remarks like "we're all Turks - don't try to separate us," I see that kind of hulking nationalism hurting Turkey, Turks, Kurds, and all others who must live with or near Turks. It does not have to be this way.
The reality of the place now called Turkey is that the place has long been occupied by a tremendous diversity of ethnic groups, in various degrees of "Turkification." Every person in the UK knows that the place has been occupied by and settled by Angles, Saxons, Danes, Celts, Romans, Picts and others, and even today, Wales exists as an incompletely "englished" survivor country of Celts, most of whom speak English as their first language. Is Wales' existence or the Welsh language a threat to England, to the English language? Only if one insanely insists that ALL of Britain MUST conform to the conquering majority culture. Only if an English person has been brainwashed to believe that everything must be uniform. Such insistences, common among many groups in many modern states, unfortunately, are sad attempts to deny realities and often lead to genocides. If we look at Milosevic's Yugoslavia, we can say, "See what happens when you allow rights to minorities - they destroy the country," or we can say, "If most of the nationalities comprising Yugoslavia did not want to be in that state, was there really a Yugoslav state worth fighting for?" Turkish nationalists must remind themselves that most Kurds in Turkey today are happy to remain as Turkish citizens in Turkey as long as they are not persecuted, but the more that Turkish nationalists deny the reality of Kurdish culture, the more that they will cause the Turkish state to be hated by Kurds.
There might not be Americans today if the British royal government at the time before the American Revolution did not try to force their arbitrary governance on their fellow English subjects in the English colonies of America. Overwhelmingly in the mid-1770's, most Americans, including the ruling elites of the colonies considered themselves English, but by 1781, probably most English settlers of all classes and regions considered themselves Americans. When soldiers point guns at your people, even if there is a kindred relationship, that act can turn a people against the flag controlling those soldiers. Turkish nationalists should know that they, not the Kurds, are the ones that can nurture Kurdish separatism. The Turkish Right that claims to want to preserve the integrity of Turkey are probably the ones most likely to cause Kurdish separatism.
The paintings of the earliest Turkish rulers show people who are clearly Asian, almost indistinguisable from their Altaic Mongol cousins. Where are these Turks today? Is nobody in Turkey today really Turkish? No, it's just a different reality. The majority of Turks in Turkey today are a mix of Greek, Kurd, Turk, Jew, Hittite, Armenian, and so many others. Turkey in 2007 has no pure Turkish race, so what is Turkey? It is a place, not a race. Who is a Turk? It is someone who forms part of the culture of Turkey. Is it a Kurd? Yes. Is it an Armenian who survived the genocides of the 20th Century? Yes. Is it a Greek, descended from people who survived from a city that once was called Constantinople? Yes. Is it a Sephardic Jew, who survived the Spanish Inquisition? Yes. Turkey, the Turks, and Turkish culture is more than a country belonging to idealized horseriders from the Steppes. Each group has enriched Turkey, and changed it. Turkey is a rich tapestry. A beautiful Turkish carpet is not one color, but a story told by different, enduring threads that can carry across time and space great beauty and meaning about life, precisely due to the strength of its complexity.
Many Turks are uncomfortable about admitting that the Kurds are another ethnic community because they have been brainwashed to think that strength is in uniformity of race, language or thought. This is just standard fascist propaganda, and just as Germany, Italy and Spain survive as successful and peaceful modern nations after their fascist ideologies have been rightly marginalized, it could happen in Turkey. This national psychological terror is what motivates a powerful Turkish army to feel the need to bully the small, poorly armed half-state of Iraqi Kurdistan, and perhaps to crush it and the Kurdish population. Some use the canards of chasing terrorists, saving Turkey, or of protecting the Turkomens as the reason for crushing Kurdistan.
I am not naive. I also know that all human groups include the insane, the violent, the irrational. It is also possible that when there is a cycle of crushing a minority, and the minority fighting back, that things could become a cycle of violence and revenge for both sides, without either side remembering the goal of peace. I think that this is what Turkey is experiencing, and reasonable Kurds get trapped from both sides.
Spain is a great example where different groups have autonomy and development within a larger Spain and every Spaniard benefits from it. I do not see Turkey breaking up into an independent Kurdish state, because the Kurds are everywhere. Many prominent Turkish politicians have admitted that they are Kurdish. There is a lot of opportunity is Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir, and freer Kurdish Turks are not going to prefer rural poverty when they could be a part of this larger Turkey. Canada is a multi-language modern nation that thrives because of its diversity and autonomy to a French speaking minority. I don't see why Turkey cannot be in the pattern of Canada or Spain, or Britain. The Kurds and Turks have a long, intertwined, and complex relationship.
If the Turkish Army is planning to invade Iraqi Kurdistan, let's make it clear that this is a plan not to end terrorism, Turkey or Turkoman minorities, but rather to divert attention from internal Turkish politics that do not even have anything to do with Kurds. The real honor of the Turkish military will not be proven by pouncing on a tiny Kurdish zone in Iraq whose peoples survived the holocausts of Saddam Hussain. The real honor, dignity and worth of the Turkish military will be to keep Turkey safe from within, and the best way to do that, in the long run, is to tell the Turkish Right that the time to beat up the Kurds has passed, and that the national army's role will be to keep the borders safe, and to uphold the constitution of a country whose citizens of all ethnic backgrounds generally want and need democracy and freedom.
The role of the Turkish politicians is to perhaps recall the best of Ataturk the statesman, bringing a better vision of Turkey - of a Turkey beyond what it is at the moment, of creating a nation that is not a fossil or an illusion, but a vehicle serving the people during modern times. This is what all nations need to do. If Turkey and the Kurdish region start resembling a peaceful, multilingual Switzerland, is this a defeat for Turkey or the Turks? I don't think so. In fact, I think that this is the kind of mirage that Turks and Kurds, and indeed most in the Middle East, would be very happy to see become their reality.
Many of the comments below are complete nonsense and / or lack of general culture. South East in Turkey is no other than Kurdish fighting Kurdish and Kurdish killing Kurdish with American weapons. European countries do not want a strong Turkey and therefore are planning to destabilize her with Kurds, Armenians, etc. The latter will end up victims of being naive. Turkey will stay united with Turks, kurdish, Armenians, Jews, Greeks all living together in peace.
Having no axe to grind in this discussion, I do not know who was first anywhere let alone Asia Minor.
However I do know part of modern Turkey is in Europe just as is the whole of the U.K.(Mark Mardell's colleagues could do well to remember this on their broadcasts.
A Democracy is ruled by its people not the Military and the Military should not interfere with government but be subservient to it and therefore the people.
Unfortunately in many parts of the world this not the case.
The UK is a false democracy as we have an undemocratic voting system, this system allows the Elite(Oxbridge graduates now) here to act as they see fit in our name, this whilst they truly represent around one third of the voting public.
Unfortunately with the present economical-political setup in the world, never mind the religious fanatics, we cannot expect peace and coexistence any time in our lifetimes.
I don't understand, where people come up with some of these stories? Is it the media blinding you, or do you just have a high level of fantasy and imagination.
Mr. Mardell, I am going to ask you a favour as a human being. Obviously none of these people, know the truth and some maybe don't even want to know the truth, therefore I ask you kindly to take a camera crew, film the Kurdish people of Turkey as they are obviously the poorest. Show these people what they refuse to go and see for themselves. If the Turks were living like us, they would have done the exact same things. I'm Kurdish and yet don't consider the PKK as a terrorist organisation, but merely an army which has stood for it's people against the oppressors. I ask all Turks to go and ask your government how many innocent Kurds they have killed, how many innocent peoples homes they have destroyed, how they have not let speak their mind.
I condemn the killings of anyone, but we live in a dirty place, sometimes you need wars to get rid of the bad blood. You say we have killed 37,000 troops well we have given the lives of more than 500,000 and we don't consider Turkey, Iraq, Iran or Syria as terrorist organisations, you say you want to defend yourself against the PKK, when it was you who started to attack them. When they killed 37,000 of your troops it was in defence. Even though I think those numbers are exagerated to give Kurds a bad name.
Emily Alp, you say 9/11 for you was in 1984, but you have your facts wrong, 37,000 troops have died until now, so over a 20 year period, well the Kurds in 1987 were gassed by the ba'ath regime, which killed 5000 innocent people in one day. I recomend people to read wikipedia a great online encyclopedia, and trust me the Kurds have never had any power so how can it be us that are creating conspiracies, we are followers of the west ourselves. Also a great writer would be Martin van Bruinesen. I hope you understand Kurds are not bad people, we are just a confused people. In contrary to all other nations we actually stand for peace and freedom.
Finally one last thing about the city of Kirkuk. Yes Kurds are slowly over populating the city, but since when did we become car bombers and bomb experts. We stand side by side with the American army, which means if you accuse us, indirectly your accusing them. We were the first people to be kicked out of our city and now all that we are doing is taking back the lands and houses that belonged to us. We are not much different from (Africans) when they used to be slaves, the only difference is we are not slaves, but we have been taken away from our rights and freedom to live happily, the truth is we have never seen any peace. And whoever was saying that we are fighting each other that is a lie too, I hope Mark Mardell, that you will show the world the true side and help us reside on this planet in peace.
hello everybody...i copied this from one of the comment below''Well, Ottoman governed the lands of Greek, Arabs,Romanian, Serbian, Hungarian, etc. They still exist now with all their cultural identities.'''and wonder why people in mexico,brasil and central america speaking europen languages and have the same religion?what happened the actuall people lived there 500 years ago?...why you are all against turkish?because turkey is weak now?(when i was i kid and not doing what my grandmother asked me..she used to threat me saying 'i will call ermenians''as she was tortured by some in early 1900s and never could forgot..)nobody talks about then?
Dana Saib # 65, as annoying as some of the comments and attitudes by the neo colonialist Turks here are, I want to say that most people in Europe will recognise them for what they are: nationalistic bias and general bigotry. They do most damage to the Turks themselves, they give the Europeans a taste of the brainwashing and propaganda Turks must have undergone. To me this is very educational. I do not think Kurds are bad people - they are just fighting for their freedom.
I am not fully familiar with the Kurdish story, but as you say, internet is a great place to find information... which can not be limited as even until recently. I recognise the insults, bias, veiled threats, and attacks against the Kurds from similar histories of other countries. It is disturbing that colonialism and associated ills are still alive and well in the 21st century Turkey.
I can only wish you and Kurdistan in general that one day, hopefully soon, you will regain your independence, and that your language and culture will thrive until then.
I thank Robert Otis for a brilliant contribution to this otherwise volatile cesspit of nationalism versus nationalism.
We can argue over the bones of the past but what is important is what happens now and I think the AK Party's decisive electoral victory on Sunday opens up a new chapter on Kurdish-Turkish relations, thankfully a more positive one than the Turkish military could have offered.
Ensh'Allah Erdogen, the one Turkish politician who has shown any understanding of the Kurds' situation in Turkey. I love Kurdistan and I love Turkey, I just want you guys to sort out the current mess.
And Turkey, peace in Northern Ireland was not achieved by ignoring the IRA and the UDA, in South Africa the involvement of the ANC was essential for the dismantlement of a fascist system. At some point it will be necessary to talk with PKK.
Thanks to those election results there is at least now a chance that people can start talking. I don't like PKK but to say the Turkish security forces are "without sin" in this tragedy is to fool oneself whilst fooling nobody else.
I pray that Turks and Kurds can find some way forward to a lasting peace, whatever name is given to land that is currently disputed. The average Turkish or Kurdish family just wants to live and bring up its kids in peace. Surely that should be the right of all human beings.
I hope that this Turkish vote for democracy over militarism is the precursor for a fresh start between these two ancient and brilliant but very distinct cultures and peoples.
Peter Stitt said that:At some point it will be necessary to talk with PKK.
i want to ask something for you, your goverment talks with terrorist organization. i want to answer this question, yes. they use them for their illegal army against for any other country. but we dont use them ( terrorists )for any other country.
Rob said that:I can only wish you and Kurdistan in general that one day, hopefully soon, you will regain your independence, and that your language and culture will thrive until then.
in turkey every kurdish people have democratic rights as any other turks. our goverment give the green card to the poor people for medical and majority green card owners are kurds in turkey. here is a freedom for opening language course but there isnt any language course for kurdish in turkey although they can open. i want to ask something: in your country there are a lot of ethnical groups. do they use their own language for official stuff? i want to answer this question, no! you should have been more democratic than us.in the past you invade south & north america,africa,india,philipins,china,australia and more then this countries where idont know. what happen their culture,their language and their religion?
Dana Saib said that:I ask all Turks to go and ask your government how many innocent Kurds they have killed, how many innocent peoples homes they have destroyed, how they have not let speak their mind.
too many kurds and turks killed by PKK ( the bloody terrorist organization )and too many villagies have destroyed by PKK ( the bloody terrorist organization )for what? because terrorism's main aim is appalling for everyone. they destroyed villagies because people who used to living there dont want to help PKK ( the bloody terrorist organization ). and said them , if you dont help us we will destroy your homes. and the villagers have been threaten. And they have not let speak their mind. may be they want to say something like this: we want to live togather with peace, we dont want you ( PKK ) in here, go home , go europe, go usa, go russia.
and dana said that: We were the first people to be kicked out of our city and now all that we are doing is taking back the lands and houses that belonged to us.
sorry but you know Kerk眉k is a Turkmen city. how? Turks won the war against Fars Empire. And they had settled there. there are a lot of ethnic groups in turkish army like turkmens. when Turks won the Malazgirit War, T眉rkmens have settled Kerk眉k.in World War I British army divide Kerk眉k and Musul from Turkiye for oil reservs. and killed both kurds and Turkmens. do you know the first chemical attack in the world have done by British ( churchil ) against Turkmens and Kurds.
our orijin is from North Iraq,South east Turkey, South west 陌ran and Suria.we havent any goverment or territory for living for ages.but we learn live togather with all of the nations. and we will live togather them in turkey,谋raq,iran and suria. you , kurds live in europa dont try destroy our peace. we want to live togather with iranian,turks,谋raqies and surians. living in North Iraq PKK is not originaly Kurd. they are ermanian and rebelled Kurds who never have money or statue. they are puppets of USA and any other nation who want use oil reservs. they dont think our culture or lifes they only want use us.
lastly:
if turkish goverment go to north 谋raq for destroy PKK ( the bloody terrorist organization ) we ( Kurds ) like this for our freedom. Turkey is never an invader.Turkey will go there for destroy them. turkey will not conquire there like Usa, dont worry.
A personal experience of the issue
I stayed in Turkey a few times and crossed Kurdistan as a single woman backpacker. Interestingly, I had a good experience with hosts claiming to be Kurdish, they were respectful, and even if some local playboy would try to approach me, I never felt any line was being crossed. Which is not my experience in the areas and with the men calling themselves Turkish. I learnt how to call names in public in Turkish and hit men to embarass them as they tried to touch intimate parts of my body even in crowds. I was wearing respectful clothing all the time, but of course in the summer heat it is hard to hide the fact I was a rather pretty, light haired, green-eyed chick with some curves on my body. After I made noise and humiliated the men Turkish women would thank me for it as they could never do such a thing themeselves - they would have been punished.
Things that I can not imagining happening in neither in Europe neither in Islamic Iran were the usual in Western Turkey.
Latest elections in Turkey showed us that Kurdish origin citizens in Turkey didn't support pro-kurrdish party, instead majority of votes taken by center-right Liberal AKP party.....
before the elections some people were thinking that pro-kurdish party DTP would take majority of votes in Kurdish areas and gain at least 40-50 seats in the parliament.
but that didn't happen, pro-kurdish party DTP's votes was lower than 5 years ago and they only managed to gain 23 seats in the parliaement.
Majority of Kurdish people in Turkey voted for Liberals and center right AKP party.
by supporting liberal center right AKP party instead of pro-kurdish party, They were sending message saying that "we want unity, peace and don't really want ethnic politics"
Kurdish Turk # 69, a reply in regards to official languages. YES, in countries where there are multiple ethnic groups language rights are highly respected. I can not speak from experience on official languages, because none of the countries I lived in had more than one official language. HOWEVER, this is different again for indigenous groups. Indigenous, as in people who may be a minority right now, but who were original inhabitants of the region. Kurds are an example - they are a minority in Turkey, but lived in Eastern Turkey BEFORE the Turks got there.
In these cases, where I live, even a tiny surviving tribe has language rights. It's not only a right to speak their language, BUT it is actively supported by the government, children from the tribe for example can go to school and learn in their native language. White folks if they want, can learn it too. Other groups, even migrants, get tv stations, newspapers, etc, in their own languages. This differs a little from one Western country to another, but this is generally true.
None is forced to do anything. If you want to be a Kurd and speak only Turkish, it is your right. The point is you GET the choice. NOT merely being allowed to speak it, but you get the resources to use your language and maintain your culture. By the way, which prt of Turkey do you live in?
Another example I can think of is the Sorbian language in Germany. The Sorbs are a tiny left over tribe of Slavs in Germany, an indigenous population. There are ONLY a few tens of thousands of them, but in the areas where they live, Sorbian is an OFFICIAL language along with German. For Turkey this would mean that AT LEAST in Eastern Turkey, Kurdish would be an official languge along with Turkish. You would have the right to go to the government and conduct your business in Kurdish. Send your children to a school teaching in Kurdish. Or study at a university in Kurdish. You would get Kurdish street signs, etc, and so on...
How much of this do Kurds get in Turkey? What would happen if a Kurd walked into a Turkish police station and started speaking Kurdish? Would the officers talk to him in Kurdish? Would they call a translator? Or would he get arrested and beaten up? I seriously do not know...
As for why maintaining language is important. It is because language is the single most important feature that defines a distinct people. Equally, if the Turkish government makes it difficult to use Kurdish, or makes it advantegous to use Turkish, discriminates, keeps Kurdish areas underdeveloped so Kurds have to look for work and live among majority Turks and get absorbed into Turks, it all adds up to trying to Turkify the Kurds, a kind of cultural genocide.
So, if I wanted to see what the Turkish state is doing to Kurds, cut through the propaganda from both sides, and get some indication of what is really going on, I would look at how the Kurdish language is treated in Turkey.
And by the way, I did not invade anyone, neither did my country. The histories of Western countries differ, some got invaded instead. Plus those that did invade others have started making amends for what they did in the past - something Turkey has not done yet... or even admited to any wrongdoing.
everyone has a different stance on the Kurdish issue, but if we try to look at this issue trough the democratization perspective, everyone should see what successful democratic steps have the Turks managed to settle down in Turkey in couple of years.
Turkish Kurds have more and more rights now. they elect their own representatives. the 10% vote barrage is not against the Kurds, it is to pave the way for the stable governments, just like the 2 round elections of France.
the Prime Minister was elected from a Kurdish city, Siirt. some of you may not know this fact, but Mr. Erdogan was not elected in the elections and then the Turkish assembly renewed the elections only in Siirt and those inhabitants have elected him as a representative and then he built up his own government in the last elections.
Whoever thinks that there is a lack in Turkey's democratization process, is totally wrong!! which country does not have any maladministration or lack of freedom among its citizens???
Germany? I lived there 1 year as a student and have experienced so many times discrimination!!
France? what about those rebellious miniroties and students' fights!!
Rwanda genocide?
Britain? if we look at the history, the UK is the main invader.
if we consider the minority rights in terms of democracy, first of all we should critise those car-bombing minorities in France. why did they do that??? which reasons did force them to do this instead of using democratic ways to express themselves?
Turkey is the only country in the Eastern Muslim world which has a peaceful community in itself and trying to settle down more and more democratic values among its citizens. everyone should see this fact.
what the Europeans gain when they blaim Turkey bec. of such issues, is putting one more brick on the racial hostilities among the nationalities.
we divide nations in such ways and making the possible 3rd world war much more closer to us.
I support constructive critics which will help us to bring peace to this world.
thanks
Halit Altinkaya
i am a Kurdish origin man from Turkey.
i can see some people here talking in the name of Turkey's Kurds !
i am really amazed to see some people (especially the ones with foreign names or nicknames) wants us to separete from Turkey or fight with Turkey's security forces.
i can tell you that majority of Turkey's kurds do not have plans to seperate from Turkey.
this is our land, we are Turkish, kurdish...we are anatolian.
the eastern anatolia has ONE or TWO problem...pkk terrorism and unemployment.
kurdish people also suffered from pkk activities and violence. and we do not support terrorism, violence, seperation etc.
things are different and better now compare to 10-20 years ago.
we all have big hopes from new parliament.
What 19 Jul 2007, Jos茅 Luis Vel谩zquez de la Hoz failed to recognise in his post was that UNLIKE Cyprus, the Kurdish inhabitants of Turkey are not living in occupied territory recognised only by it's mother nation.
In no way whatsoever is the Cyprus occupation similar to this. Who owns the property that the Kurdish people llive in? It certainly won't be someone who was forced out of their home at gunpoint with a fistful of belongings.
I sincerely hope those who read the post by Jos茅 Luis Vel谩zquez de la Hoz also feel that his statements are untrue otherwise the Cypriots who died fighting for their homes and families all died in vain.
Andrew Evans, in my previous message on July 17 I was merely pointing out the double standards Turkish authorities adopts on both Cyprus and itself. While (rightly or wrongly) championing the (alleged) political rights of Turkish Cypriots, Turkey fails to recognize those very rights of Kurdish people living in its territory. I think scholars and conflict resolution specialists across the globe have noted as well this contradictory policy. Regards.
Hope of Kurds!
It seems Kosovo is very actual story in Mr. Mardell麓s Euroblog, as everybody busy with Kosovo鈥檚 independence, especially USA and EU are doing everything to support Kosovo. In the meantime Turkey doesn鈥檛 miss the opportunity to lunch invasion.
Is Turkeys really targeting PKK? As they give this invasion codename 鈥淪un鈥 I believe you can find the answer by looking at Kurdish flag, there you will see the bright and shiny sun represents the source of life and light of the people is now target of Turkish nationalist.
Eveybody should see that actual problem of Turkey is not they have PKK, they have 15-20 million Kurds, whose cultural rights and language are still restricted are living under brutal pressure.
Iraqi Kurdistan is our big hope is making by free Kurds. Slowly going to be destroyed by Turkish Military; unless international power stops them!
As 2 million of Kosovo is very save and hopefully improve the situation day by day. I need to pay your attention to Kurdish problem.
Kurds hope and expectation from(especially European)people is be more sensible the matters behind their borders.