Points of order
Excitable points of order at Holyrood tonight as MSPs gathered for division time when they vote on the day’s business.
First, Alex Neil for the SNP, then Robert Brown for the Liberal Democrats, sought to revisit the earlier exchanges over the Trump application.
Mr Neil was seeking sundry apologies from opposition critics. Mr Brown felt that Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Scotland had been misled by the government in answers offered earlier today (see previous entry on this blog).
Presiding Officer Alex Fergusson solemnly offered his view that these were not points upon which he could rule.
They were points of argument with regard to the controversy now surrounding the application by the US billionaire.
Mr Fergusson then invited members to acknowledge and welcome a distinguished visitor sitting in the gallery, witnessing all this.
His name? R. Nicholas Burns, the US Under-secretary for Political Affairs.
I'm 
Comments
And ?
Never a dull moment !!
Please can there be a Scottish version of 'Folks On the Hill', the cartoon relating the everyday story of Stormont politicians ?
Holyrood's soap opera is becoming almost as tortuous in its twists and turns..
Alex Salmond. The most popular First Minister we've had, is it any wonder the pitiful LibDems are trying to besmirch him with unsubstantiated claims.
Nicol Stephen's old boss, McConnell met Trump, Ian Paisley met Trump, both of them apparently campaigning for this investment. But when Salmond meets Trump it's suddenly a scandal. The reasons and terms for this meeting are well publicised. Aberdeenshire Council wants the development, the majority of Aberdonians want it supposedly. Well done Alex, keep up the good work.
Brian,I am a little curious as to what Mr Burns must think about the whole ghastly show,but how will we ever know?For all I know the Senate/HoR debates might be as bad,so he could feel quite at home.
Which makes me think about all the other visitors the parliament gets,especially from other chambers,and what they must make of it all.Makes one wish for a visitors book honestly filled in and then put online.What a bestseller!
brian
How can a legal challenge be issued it cant. The legal rules have been followed. I didnt see this level of question asking when jack mcconnel took mr trump round in a wee helicopter trip or visted him and he wasnt even the MSp for the area. So no nicol stephen is looking for sleaze to help out his labour bedmates in the parliament. Brian how about finding out what is happening with the police becoming involved in the whole donor/jersey gate breaking of the law thats what i want to know about.
Nothing that the nice Nicol Stephen can say on this matter should ever be allowed to detract from his unselfish unbiased and totally above board involvement (as Roads Minister) in the much misunderstood handling of the Aberdeen bypass issue. He must be missing power terribly. Spare a charitable thought for him this Christmas.
Brian
What Mr Burns may be thinking "how can I recommend this country for inward investment if this is how they behave about a golf course".
This is about Nicol Stephens who has lost his dummy. He has lost his ministerial Mondeo and does not care about the damage he is doing to Scotland in the process, in his bid for revenge against the party that beat him.
As 80% of the locals (poll in the Press & Journal) are in favor of this development, and he is trying his best to sink it, for nothing more than his vanity, I hope the voters in Aberdeen remember this when he next asks for their vote.
Brian
What Mr Burns may be thinking "how can I recommend this country for inward investment if this is how they behave about a golf course".
This is about Nicol Stephens who has lost his dummy. He has lost his ministerial Mondeo and does not care about the damage he is doing to Scotland in the process, in his bid for revenge against the party that beat him.
As 80% of the locals (poll in the Press & Journal) are in favor of this development, and he is trying his best to sink it, for nothing more than his vanity, I hope the voters in Aberdeen remember this when he next asks for their vote.
The LibDems have delibrately slandered a senior government civil servant in order to attack Alex Salmond. A senior civil servant who has done nothing wrong and who cannot defend himself.
Also it appears that Chief Executive of Aberdeenshire council is also very unhappy about being dragged into this affair by the LibDems, and feels his position has been compromised by the actions of Nicol Stephens.
These are points that Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Scotland have failed to address, or have delibrately ignored.
I still want an answer?
HOW MUCH PUBLIC MONEY is likely to find its way into this "inward investment" boondoggle?
How much are we prepared to bribe folk to colonise us?
Slainte
ed
"We can safely predict that for a long time there are going to be people in places of power who will want to solve our local problems by inviting in some great multinational corporation. They will want
to put millions of dollars of public money into an "incentive package" to make it worthwhile for the corporation to pay low wages for our labor and to pay low prices for, let us say, our timber. It is well understood that nothing so excites the glands of a free-market capitalist as the offer of a government subsidy."
-- Wendell Berry, in "Conserving Forest Communities"
post 10 "Conserving Forest Communities." Has that forest left Dunsinane again and marched north to the blasted heath of Menie?
I find it interesting to say the least that Nicol Stephen is so vocal on this issue and yet had nothing whatsoever to say about the Wendy Alexander controversy.
I have to say that as an Aberdonian im a bit fed up with all the garbage going on about the Trump Golfcourse and Houses. It is a big opportunity offering 1400 jobs minimum in the area. It is a great opportunity to get rid of an area of land that is being washed into the sea. (a gift horse in-fact)
I am annoyed that a minority wooly jumper socialists have managed to get all of this publicity. The people of Aberdeenshire made their opinions felt through their council and ousted one member who clearly had his own interests. There are more should go especially on the Liberal front as she spent a couple of days publicly slagging off the proposal through some poor gent who goes fishing in the area to supliment a pension (she even described this as his income source, poor guy is probably getting investigated by the revenue now if they can find his address). She should have been removed from the committee then but is still there conflict of interest and all.
If Alex Salmond did influence the decision to call in a wrong decission then he is a hero. But I dont believe he did. Mr Swinney et al. are very capable of acting in the peoples interest themselves.
Yesterday you wrote of the presence of R. Nicholas Burns, the US Under-secretary for Political Affairs, in the gallery at Holyrood, and invited us to infer that he was there to hear discussion of the planning application by the US billionaire Donald Trump.
Today we discover that ministers from eight Nato countries with troops in southern Afghanistan are gathering in Edinburgh to discuss the future of that country.
Given the certainty that Mr Burns was here primarily to attend the Nato conference, it was at best manipulative and at worst totally dishonest of you not to mention the real reason for Mr Burns' presence in Edinburgh, which you must have been fully aware of.
I know you won't publish this post but I also want you to know you did not get away with this shameless attempt at manipulation of the public's perception in this matter.
If not an American billionaire, who exactly WILL invest in Scotland's sporting and tourism infrastructure. Would one of your whingeing complainers tell us? Should we just do without?
Brain if you want to gauge the feeling of NE Scotland on this matter I suggest you could do worse than look to the P&J editorial;-
"Less than 24 hours after Aberdeenshire's council made an impressive job of rectifying the mess it had created of the Trump project, Scottish and UK politicians have made a fresh attempt to sabotage it. Scottish Lib Dem leader Nicol Stephen, a man who should have the wellbeing of the county at the forefront of his consciousness, placed that priority firmly behind the desire to make political capital by attempting to portray the SNP government's efforts to keep the plan alive as some kind of sleaze-ridden journey on the gravy train to personal glory.
First, his party led the rather pathetic criticism of First Minister Alex Salmond's use of the ministerial car to attend a meeting with Trump's representatives when he was acting in his constituency role. Now, Mr Stephen himself has jumped on the bandwagon by calling "foul" over the government decision to call in the plan.
We know that politics is a dirty business, but there are times when the opportunity to land a punch should take second place to the greater good, which, in this case, is ensuring that a development which will bring massive investment to the north-east of Scotland is welcomed and encouraged rather than blocked and criticised at every turn.
Worse still is the decision by Westminster politicians to have their pop at the SNP by suggesting that the calling-in of the Trump proposal runs contrary to the party's beliefs on the removal of power from centralised government. The only consolation was that any credibility Edinburgh MP Mark Lazarowicz hoped to gain by seeking the high moral ground was instantly nullified by the support of Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman, that doyenne of political propriety. Politicians should learn when to keep their mouths shut and, where this issue is concerned, that time is now."
Nuff said LIb-Dum chancers.
Direct from the U.S. Department of Defense wesbite:
"Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates and R. Nicholas Burns, undersecretary of state for political affairs, arrived here today for meetings with allies working in Regional Command South in Afghanistan."
Okay, let's see you publish this post too, or is indisputable proof that my previous post reveals your total dishonesty in this matter getting just a little too uncomfortable for you now?
Brian, have you mentioned that Donald Trump is more than just an American Billionaire, that his mother was a Scot.
It's understandable that someone who has strong ties with Scotland should look on it as a place to invest in.
I'm a Scot living abroad. I travel home to Scotland and spend plenty of money in my place of birth, as do my grown up children who were born and brought up in Australia.
What I spend though is a pittance compared with Donald Trump. Here in Australia the State government would have acted in exactly the same manner as the Scottish government in this situation. I know you won't print this but it is a disgrace that the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ is making a song and dance of all this at the behest of the failed opposition. Don't you want the Scottish government to overturn decisions that go against the will of the local people, or are you happy seeing a billion pounds of investment money going down the gurgler because of the casting vote of a Liberal democrat chairman.
The weakness in this so called story is that there are two things missing, a specific accusation and evidence of wrongdoing. These two things are usually required in order to justify a headline.
So Labour's sidekick 'Little Nicol' mentions the word sleaze and it is used as a headline. Now Goldie uses the phrase 'Putting Trump plan in danger' and it is also used as a headline. This latest headline seems strange given the fact that the plan was dead until Swinney gave it a second chance.
I echo the opinion of many in that the Unionists are terrified that their hoped for collapse of this new Government does not appear to be happening. The deeply worrying thing is that the opposition and media, in shelving any reporting or investigation into illegal donations, appear to consider the interests of Scottish law and the Scottish economy to be expendable in a desperate attempt to maintain this Union.
This tactic by the press is very dangerous indeed. By continually headlining propoganda and disseminating misinformation in order to attack one party they run the risk of creating a complelety skewed view of Scottish politics that does not reflect reality.
If the SNP continue to perform well and garner support then this type of coverage may eventually feed into the hands of the less desirable Unionist elements in Scottish society by confirming their already unhealthy prejudices. This can be seen in the comments from anti SNP posters who have bought into this cultivated atmosphere and feel justified in continual name calling, where the unspecific accusation of 'sleaze' is mistaken for actual evidence.
This is around my sixth attempt at having a comment accepted here, let's see if this gets through.
Brian - now wee Nic wants a public inquiry, even the normally anti-SNP CBI Scotland getting behind the Government on this matter, can convince him he's in a hole and should stop digging. How is minority Government to work if we are to fund a public inquiry every time wee Nic throws his toys out the pram. The SNP should make this a confidence matter and if wee Nic wishes we should let the people decide, of one thing i'm sure in that event he would be job hunting.
#14, you hit the nail on the head.
The US Neo-con imperialist war mongers are not happy with the SNP's rise to power in Scotland. There is certainly a bigger reason that the US under-secretary for Political affairs was here (I believe the clue is in the title!)
Brown may be towing the 'New world order' line down south, but the SNP do not dance to the same tune.
Archie - As Michael Winner might say, 'Calm down, dear !'.
I think we all realise that some big-wig from over the pond wouldn't only be over in Scotland to watch some super-annuated local politicians arguing amongst them selves.
Why would he need to, now that he has Brian Taylor's excellent blog to keep him appraised of the 'soap opera' which Scottish business and politics rapidly is becoming ?
In fact, perhaps our host might like to re-pitch 'Blether with Brian' with some catchy marketing slogans :-
'More exciting than East Enders !
With the drama of the Apprentice !
And if they misbehave you can vote them out of the Holyrood jungle ! '*
* Calls may be recorded, you may lose your vote if you can't be bothered to register or have an extra long lie in on the day of the election.
archie, calm down!
Shameless manipulation? What is wrong with you? He was just pointing out, as the Presiding Officer did, that there was an interested spectator at the Parliament.
Obviously the chap attended that debate to hear what the parliament was saying about the Trump application. Presumably you don't disagree with that. Yes, his principal motive for being in Edinburgh wasn't to attend the Parliament but it's surely interesting that he did. Injecting a bit of intrigue into writing doesn't have to equate to lying and manipulation. Fortunately, he didn't manage to fool crusaders like you anyway.
Nic should remember that although the SNP are not yet a majority government, the Libs are a tiny minority opposition.
It's so nice to see how many proud Scots are so keen to crawl for a creep.
Slainte
ed
To the boringly unoriginal "Michael Winner" put down merchants on this blog: If you like facts to be omitted from your news coverage to deliberately skew your view of reality that's up to you. I don't.
As soon as Brian Taylor posted this article people wrote in asking "and"? - they sensed there was something they were not being told. Those people are not stupid. Just as I am not stupid enough to worry about your attempts to deny the truth.
We will see if Brian continues to publish my posts. As soon as he doesn't that is a clear admission of his malicious intent here. Otherwise, why not allow people to comment freely on the matter?
THE SNP have behaved illegally and then lied to the people of Scotland about it. Don’t take my word for it – compare the following:
1, The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ put the following questions to the Scottish Government and received the corresponding answers from their press office:
Question: Who was in the room with the chief planner when he placed the first of the two calls he made to the chief executive of Aberdeenshire council on 4th December to discuss the Trump organisation's planning application for the Menie estate?
Answer: No-one other than the chief planner and David Ferguson, head of planning decisions. The Trump organisation were not in the room.
Question: Was it appropriate for members of the Trump organisation to be in the room during this call?
Answer: The Trump Organisation were not in the room.
Answer: For what? Question: Has the chief planner or anyone from the Scottish government apologised to the chief executive of Aberdeenshire council in connection with this matter?
2, The Chief Executive of Aberdeenshire Council then issued the following:
Alan Campbell, Chief Executive of Aberdeenshire Council wants to make it crystal clear that he had two phone calls with the Chief Planner [who only acts on the direct instruction of ministers] on the afternoon of Tuesday 4th December 2007.
The first call was about the procedure which Aberdeenshire Council were likely to adopt at their special meeting. It was in that context that the Chief Executive was informed by the Chief Planner that members of the Trump Organisation were in the Chief Planner’s room. The Chief Executive asked that they leave the room. The discussion then took place.
It was a couple of hours later in the afternoon that the Chief Executive received a further call from the Chief Planner. That call related to the call-in and was the first time the call-in had been referred to. There was no question of the Trump Organisation being with the Chief Planner at that time.
The Process is required by law to be transparent. If it is not then the opponents will be able to take the matter to judicial review after the Government have decided/
If the case is clear the Government don’t need to lie. The fact is they are lying because they have been acting in a corrupt manner to circumvent the genuine concerns of the local planning committee.
One person wrote "and".
You are ommitting facts to deliberately skew my view of reality.
Also, how will we know if he has stopped publishing your posts?
I really do think you are over egging this one Archie, your investigative skills demand you fry bigger fish. Im still not entirely sure what you are insinuating actually. If it's that Brian Taylor wants us to believe that this is a worldwide story to detract from the problems Labour are facing then I think it is you who have malicious intent. You really should be more careful about the language you use.
Lets be clear here.
This is a controversial development.
1400 new jobs are a good thing.
But who is Mr Trump going to use to fill those jobs? Will he find 1400 local people willing to spend 50 hours a week grovelling to visiting American millionaires for minimum wage? Or will he do what all the posh hotels and resorts do and employ Eastern Europeans to move to the area.
I'm not in anyway opposed to immigration and certainly it will be a good opportunity for those that can take advantage of it. But is it what local people want?
As for the environmental issues, they are real – Trump plans to destroy some of the most protected land in the Scotland. All developments are harmful to the environment but developers must be willing to do there part in the planning process to ensure that damage is minimalised.
If the planning process is not conducted in a transparent way or if the Government act in a way that is prejudiced for or against the application, then there is potential for the outcome to be challenged and declared invalid by the courts.
The SNP Government are acting in a manner that is prejudiced, what’s more they have lied to the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ and by extension the people of Scotland to try and cover up the fact.
One thing business prizes is certainty, If the SNP government undermine the planning system then Scotland’s ability to attract inward investment will also be undermined
I am pleased that Nicol Stephen is trying to ensure that a democratic and transparent process is upheld to secure the possibility of this and future investment and the involvement of local people in decision which affect their lives.
Of one thing we can be ABSOLUTELY assured in this whole sorry episode - it is NOT Nichol Stephen who will be deemed as "trying to ensure that a democratic and transparent process is upheld to secure the possibility of this and future investment".
No matter the outcome of any potential inquiry/commission - it will undoubtedly be Nichol Stephen, and the Liberal party, who will be considered the saboteurs should this inward investment opportunity fall through.
WJ:
You may be right.
If you are it is regretable that people are so willing to sacrifice democracy, the rule of law and freedom of speech just because they see a suitcase full of money.
the pictish king calgacus, who hailed from the north-east, once said of the Romans that they make a desert and call it peace. Now, we can say of Nicoll Stephen that he makes unemployment and calls it good
Remember:
For "inward investment" read Economic COLONIALISM.
Inward investment is only worthwhile (for the investor) if the net result is OUTWARD PROFITS.
Slainte
ed
Dear Anon - I wondered when the threats would start. It always happens when you don't like to hear the truth. You won't know if Brian stops publishing my posts. That's his problem not mine.
Perhaps Robbie could advise me on three connected points.
1 Which law has been broken? Please cite the law and the relevent article
2 If a law has been broken, which I very much doubt, which member of the SNP was in the room at the time.
3 Is a mistake on the question of who called whom and who was there, very quickly corrected by the parties involved, a lie?
4 If the Chief Executive of Aberdeenshire asks for others to leave the room he is phoning , and they do, how can they also be present when he discusses this matter with the recipient of his phone call?
Brian - if you are going to censor my posts (which have never contained obscenities or anything otherwise illegal) can you please do so in a way that still makes sense! I don't want to be put into the same category as the illiterates who have been writing to your blog recently.
1 Which law has been broken?
The law requires the Government to act as the impartial adjudicator when it calls-in planning issues – we all know they are on they are on the side of Trump because Trump were being advised by the civil service even before the call-in. The law also requires the planning process to be transparent; if the Government are misleading journalists then it is not transparent. The result is the process is illegal. Not criminal, but not legal.
2 If a law has been broken, which I very much doubt, which member of the SNP was in the room at the time.
The Chief Planner only works on the direct instruction of Ministers. A Minister does not have to be in the room for someone to follow there instructions.
3 Is a mistake on the question of who called whom and who was there, very quickly corrected by the parties involved, a lie?
A mistake? The Press Office will have asked the relevant people and sought the advice of Ministers. That is the process they follow. If it was a mistake then it was a very convenient one. It was only correct when it was proved to be false.
To clarify further, the Chief Planner was making phoning Aberdeenshire Council not the other way round. The purpose of the phone call was to get advice for the Trump organisation on the Councils processes for further consideration of the application.
4 If the Chief Executive of Aberdeenshire asks for others to leave the room he is phoning , and they do, how can they also be present when he discusses this matter with the recipient of his phone call?
To clarify, the Chief Planner was phoning Aberdeenshire Council not the other way round. The purpose of the phone call was to get advice for the Trump organisation on the Councils processes for further consideration of the application.
It has been established that they were not in the room when the important discussions took place – but this was only because the Chief Executive insisted they leave. They should not have been in the room at any stage. The meeting should not have been taking place when the call-in had not even happened.
I’m sorry all the SNP blogers think that the Government must never be criticised but this is a serious issue