Standby for..The Blog Prince.
He's already pointed out my glaring typo in the one entry I have been able to post this morning. I am going to sit in the corner and spell out PERSEVERANCE a hundred times.
In the meantime here's a message from The Prince:
I'm sorry for the huge problems on the Blog over the last couple of days. Although it's no consolation, we weren't alone: blogs across the Â鶹ԼÅÄ were hit, and one technical expert in another part of the Beeb called what was happening "unprecedented".
Over the last 24 hours, servers have been rebooted, files rebuilt, hard-drives hit with hammers (mostly by us here at PM) - and things are slowly returning to normal.
In the meantime, a word about 502s - which I know have been the bane of our lives recently.
If you get a 502, it means the system can't currently cope with the volume of comments coming in.
What needs to be borne in mind is that the the system we use, called Movable Type, was not designed to allow instantaneous, real-time commenting, and so users shouldn't expect it to work that way.
The posts are moderated intermittently (generally within 30 mins of posting) but they aren't constantly monitored. So there is no way a post will appear as soon as it was posted. Even if it was, it would still take 5 or 10 minutes to propogate around the web. And even then a local cache of the page - what you see on your screen - might not show up the changes for a while.
What this means is that repeatedly posting the same message will not make it appear any faster, but in fact it is simply clogging up the system, absorbing the time of the moderators thus ensuring that other posts are slowed down.
One of the major reasons the blog keeps collapsing is because of the amount of spam we're getting. Most of it gets stopped, but often it arrives in such huge volumes that it slows the system down. And spam can affect innocent froggers: anyone repeatedly posting the same message to the same board will be classified as a spammer, automatically. Just becasue he or she is an individual, with no malicious intent, doesn't mean the system won't class him or her as a spammer - it's not that clever.
I know how frustrating 502s are - believe me, I get enough of them - but I hope the above goes some way to explaining why we get them.
The bigger question I know you'll want answering is how to avoid getting them, and I wish I had the definitive answer. We're trying to get the system working efficiently again, and please could Froggers have a little more patience until we achieve it.
Blog Prince.
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Marc - the major problem with that is that we cannot tell whether or not a message has got through, hence the repeated messages. Sometimes you can send the same message 5 times, get 502'd, and none get through. Other times, 2 or 3 get through. And we're often not repeating them immediately, but with gaps of 30 mins or so.
Thanks for trying, we do appreciate the efforts!
Hmm.. Fair point, but if you will ask people to comment on the Blog, and hype it up to be an integral part of the programme, it is only to be expected that there will be increased traffic.
We would be quite happy not to bother, but that doesn't seem to be where the new all-singing all-dancing Â鶹ԼÅÄ wants to take us ? Perhaps we should listen to Jeremy Paxman, and forget about the 'obsession with interactivity' until the technology catches up with us somewhat ?
I am not utterly convinced that everything is being done to sort it out either. If a commercial company found that it was not able to communicate with the customer base because the technology was falling down, it would have been sorted out yesterday, because each day of minor disruption would mean money down the drain - which does tend to focus the mind wonderfully..
"What needs to be borne in mind is that the the system we use, called Movable Type, "
Time for something else, methinks. Like Government, the Â鶹ԼÅÄ seems remarkably inept in its choice of IT providers.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to return to the DNA system which was home-built, and far better. It also continues to work, where it is in use.
Why pay foreigners to screw us up?
xx
ed
Business will be either better or worse.
-- Calvin Coolidge
Thu Oct 25 11:37:46 BST 2007
I'm posting a comment just to see if I can. It's like playing the lottery,with all the excitement and the apparently miniscule chance to win, but none of the financial outlay.
Excellent essay, NBP.Have you thought of doing a PhD in "Interactivity - the curse of the 21st C broadcaster" or some similar title?
Anyway.... must drag myself away from the thrill of a resurrected blog ("Praise the Lord" indeed - this blog should be called Lazarus) & back to the grey gloom that is Manchester today.
"We're trying to get the system working efficiently again"
Again?
Hmmmm
Execute every act of thy life as though it were thy last.
-- Marcus Aurelius
Thu Oct 25 11:43:00 BST 2007
Thanks Marc - but sometimes posts do appear instaneously, well as near as....
Householders don’t create waste -
As householders are only the conveyer-belt of waste between the retailer and those responsible for its disposal – blaming them for its contents is like blaming school-bus drivers for what they are conveying on their bus.
Isn't it time for a simple system which requires a potential user to register?
Wouldn't that simple device solve most of the 'spam'?
Abusive users could be de-registered, though no doubt, they could re-register under another identity, but this would slow them down and may be counteracted.
Is the Â鶹ԼÅÄ's IT department too thick or too attached to Immovable Type to see the wood for the trees?
xx
ed
Football combines the two worst features of American life. It is violence punctuated by committee meetings.
-- George F. Will, "Men At Work: The Craft of Baseball"
Thu Oct 25 11:56:21 BST 2007
Quote from our Marc .... :-)
'What needs to be borne in mind is that the the system we use, called Movable Type, was not designed to allow instantaneous, real-time commenting, and so users shouldn't expect it to work that way.'
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Marc - thanks for your post. I don't think any of us have expected instantaneous real-time commenting - in fact the delay often adds to the flavour of conversations - pause to think whilst we do the washing.
However it's when they don't appear at all - or in such a random way that is the frustrating element.
Alas - the post above may well have been copied from this time last year - but again - thanks for trying Marc.
Perhaps all the rebooting will have an effect this time?
Allowing traffic to use the hard shoulder in order to reduce journey times and therefore reduce pollution means that the government has at last realised that following the ‘greens’ argument that ‘building an adequate road network would only increase the amount of traffic’ was totally counterproductive. Surely everyone now realises that the ‘greens’ are doing more harm to our lives and to the environment than any comparable pressure group!
With all the technology available to the Â鶹ԼÅÄ why does the PM website (comments & glass-box) take so long to down load one of our comment’s?
Has Eddie and his stand-in only got a ZX81?
Oh....not a lack of resources then!
"What needs to be borne in mind is that the system we use, called Movable Type, was not designed to allow instantaneous, real-time commenting, and so users shouldn't expect it to work that way."
What a load of absolute piffle!
And why not? Surely end users (bloggers) expect it to 'do what it says on the tin', they are not interested in the why, how and where for’s. They expect a blog to be just a....... blog, not something that has to be treated with sympathy and caressed so that a comment will appear!
One of the first rules for keeping Bloggers (customers?) happy is to give them what they want and when they want it, if that is NOT possible then forget it untill that can be achieved. Because all that will happen is that the punters will try a couple of times and then give up and probably 'bad mouth' the product.
It takes ages to cultivate and encourage customers and a second to watch them disappear!
DiY
Dear BP -Thank you for your explanation, at least we have a better understanding of why posting a comment has been such a challenge. However can I gently take issue with you? With a few exceptions I think the froggers have responded to our little local difficulties with varying degrees of exasperation interspersed with a good deal of humour, I take on board your comment that your system is not designed for 'instantaneous commenting' so 'users shouldn't expect it to work that way' But I would respectfully point out that it's the Â鶹ԼÅÄ's choice of system and the froggers are using it in a way in which the Â鶹ԼÅÄ have encouraged us to. So I don't think its in anyway unreasonable for us to expect all the nuts and bolts to be fit for purpose. It sounds as though a lot of folks are working their behinds off to get us through on a day by day basis, and we appreciate their efforts, but whats the long-term fix? Is there one?
Testing - hello? Am I here yet?
12:24
Well, I see folks have been busy while I've been out today. Marc, I think we all understand the issue of trying to block the spammers. We also get the fact that it's not an instant chat sort of blog. The problem (as GM has put in 2) is that when we hit a 502, we don't know if the post is going to appear or not. Usually, it's not accepted, but occasionally they do go through. It's the uncertainty issue (think Heizenberg).
As for solutions, I'd be happy to register to comment, or to use the sort of system where there's a graphic of some text that you have to enter in a box before the comment's accepted.
Had a fun day walking round Terminal 5 today. I'll try to put details on my blog....
Oh dear, I got 502'd on this post. I'm going to try reposting :)
Well, a second 502 is a bit more dis-heartening :|
And a third 502 :(
I'm seeing more and more evidence of a software solution to the spam problem on some websites, where an alphanumeric code is displayed on a submissions page. One has to read the code and enter it into an adjacent box to verify the submission. The code is usually 5 or 6 digits in length and the alphas can be upper or lower case. Rather than simply display on a line, the digits are struck at slight angles and within the box containing the code there are dots, swirls and lines at various angles. The whole is also published in a variety of different colours within the box.
I believe that they go by the acronym of CAPTCHA?
The net effect is that an automated Bot system cannot submit, or has to have a reader scanning the page visually which can perform 100% accurate scanning of the visual page, select the code from the jumble and accurately input it.
Since few, if any, spammers will have the resources required the net result is no spam. They'll move on to easier targets.
Surely the Â鶹ԼÅÄ can investigate providers of such systems? It adds a layer to the requirement to submit. One would have to click on a button to open a fresh page containing the one-time uniquely generated code for your submission. You could fill in the comments box, as now, enter the code in the appropriate place and send. Job done.
There is an issue over accessibility for those who find reading and interpreting them difficult, but these are overcome by the use of an audio alternative.
No need for registration. No need, therefore, to submit personal details to the Beeb or their IT provider. Ideal, surely?
Si.
Just to endorse what FFred said, I think we have many of us previously expressed a willingness to register and use captcha (is that how it's spelled) input to beat the spammers.
But I do think, to echo what Peej said, that we have a right to expect the blog software to be fit for purpose. If it isn't we might as well all pack up and go home and just forget about i-anything.
502 @ 17:51
Anne P @ 18, have you looked at the iPM site recently? Since 18th October the unfortunate team have put up eight threads, which have a total of two comments in them. There is nothing that I can see in the bits called "Technorati' or whatever it is. The team really must be having a rather difficult time, if that's the amount of feedback they've had.
I think the bit at the top of this thread was meant to be a call for us to "Stand by for the Blog Prince", but he's on standby really, poor man.
The thing is, if there were less carping about what the blog was set up to do in the first place and, instead, more embracing of what it has become*, coupled with an adjustment to the technology to support the way it is, then we would all be much happier. After all, right from the start even Eddie hasn't treated like a standard "weblog" has he?
*I believe the Sony was won with this blog as it is, rather than "as it was set up to be"...
Appers @ 20, I think the carping mostly happened when the blog seemed to be doing *nothing*, and wouldn't allow people to post, rather than being about its content or the posts in general. It's difficult to carp properly about things that aren't there to carp about.
(Oh, come on, did you expect me not to notice a thread that has fish in it?)
Fishers (21), The carping to which I referred was that in Marc's message above, not frogger-carping. And I was only teasing