Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

If the Catholic Church is to be reformed and renewed greater effort on the part of the Church to root out paedophile priests must be made. All priests should be instructed to report suspect priests to the police immediately, and senior clerics should publicly declare the nature of these instructions.

I'm afraid I know little about Catholic theology, but could something be done to make priests who reported fellow priests to the police think that they were doing "higher" work for God?

Thomas Jackson's article on Dawkins leaves much to be desired. It seems he might be a fan of NOMA (nonoverlapping magisteria); that religion and science occupy completely different areas and ne'er the twain shall mix.

He tops the whole article off by displaying a remarkable ignorance of quantum mechanics ("bewilderingly irrationally rational") and other esoteric scientific concepts whilst at the same time, and without any irony at all, espousing the benefits of contemplative prayer. Prayer has never achieved anything and is as useful in a crisis as stamping your feet and pouting.

To Newlach at 1. above

The procedures now in place are publicly available at:


The reporting procedure is set out on pages 16-17 of

It was heartening to read the letter by the Anglican Bishop of Eygpt.
I hope and pray that clarity of thought is shared by others in his country

Natman (@ 2) -

"Prayer has never achieved anything and is as useful in a crisis as stamping your feet and pouting."

I think one of the areas of science that has clearly been grossly neglected, is the study of the evolution of a special species of human being. This unique species has the ability to acquire instant perfect knowledge of every other person's life, consciousness and experience, and draw extravagant conclusions from it. We know that such beings exist, because one of them has revealed itself to us on this thread. How this superior being acquired this perfect and complete knowledge of the entire history and experience of every other human being, is a mystery. But clearly it is true, since this being could never make the statement about prayer that it has made, without having this remarkable capability!

I think more research is needed into the phenomenon of the evolution of these strange beings, but, what with the government cuts and so on, perhaps the funding will not be forthcoming.

Which is a pity really.

I suppose it's possible that this being could just be a 'common or garden' bluffer, that tend to emerge from time to time, and the research into those may not require such generous funding. Perhaps all that's needed is a good eye to spot an invalid presupposition. It's generally best not to disturb the 'bluffer' species, as they are a sensitive breed, and tend to emerge from their normal materialistic habitat when provoked by any mention of anything related to metaphysics, especially of the theistic kind. Quite how this instinct evolved would be another subject worthy of extensive research.

:-)

LSV,

Do you have evidence that prayer works? Otherwise my statement stands as a plausible hypothesis. I have yet to see any evidence, aside from the anecdotal, that the attempted coersion of a being who, if it existed, would know what you want even before you yourself knew it and could provide it without prayer, achieved anything that would've occured anyway.

Unless of course he's malicious enough to demand that we acknowledge him as the provider and ask first. Or possibly inept enough that he cannot provide before it's required.

It must be hard work, knowing everything and being able to do everything but waiting until someone asks for it, even when it's critical.

Natman -

For prayer to make any sense, the following conditions need to be fulfilled:

1. A belief in God.
2. A belief in a personal God.
3. Actually knowing this personal God.
4. ...which means: a relationship.
5. Being willing to communicate within this relationship.

This communication is called prayer. Nowt to do with coercion, and tormented paradoxes concerning foreknowledge or God's alleged complete dependency on prayer requests in order to act (which is a dubious doctrine espoused by John Wesley. I'm a bit of a fan of John, thanks to various Methodist influences in my life, but I don't agree with him on that point).

Since your atheism prevents you from getting past #1, then I don't see how this discussion can proceed, considering it concerns something personal outside the limits of your credulity and experience. Call that answer a cop-out if you like. Shout the accusation from the housetops if you want. But all I can say to you is that no amount of disbelief on your part will make the slightest scrap of difference to people who do believe in communication with God (a.k.a. 'prayer').

Happy now? Probably not... (oh well, shrug shoulders)

Re. the article about Dr Hans-Christian Raabe, who has been dismissed as a government drugs advisor for involvement in research linking homosexuality with paedophilia. I doubt the government would have sacked him if only he'd espoused the more popular belief in a special link between paedophilia and the Catholic priesthood. Here's how the most contentious passage would have looked;

"It concluded there was a 'disproportionately greater number of [priests] among paedophiles'.

'While the majority of [priests] are not involved in paedophilia, it is of grave concern that there is a disproportionately greater number of [priests] among paedophiles.'"

...though admittedly no one would take seriously the idea of transposing "Catholic" for "gay" in the assertion of

'"an overlap between the gay movement and the movement to make paedophilia acceptable,"'

Part of the case against him was also this;

"Briefing documents for MPs produced by Dr Raabe also stated: 'Marriage is associated with greater happiness, less depression, less alcohol abuse and less smoking.'"

Very serious crimes against fashionable opinion.

LSV,

I take it from that you don't have any evidence that prayer works? I certainly cannot recall any instances from my time as a believer that it does, and any examples of prayer 'working' were stories like someone recovering from illness (with the divine help of doctors and medicine) or pleas for money/resources/expertise (which was only acknowledged if/when said help arrived).

Okay, we'll leave it at that and that my original comment is still valid;

There is no evidence that prayer has ever achieved anything and is as useful in a crisis as stamping your foot and pouting.

Rusticatus

Thanks for that. I note that a person who suspects a priest is a paedophile "may wish to go directly to Social Services or police with your concern". I would prefer to see something more definite such as: "must contact the police immediately".

I haven't read the whole document, but does it specify what happens to those who fail to report paedophile priests to the police?

LSV - we may be fellow Anglicans but I would quibble with your five points. Prayer is very important in my life, I pray daily and often, but I do not believe as such in God, I think the idea of a 'personal' God is a contradiction in terms and strongly indicative of the origin of such an entity, I do not think it is possible to have a relationship with God, I do not believe God either hears or answers prayer.

I am touching on ground I have covered before but I have had to consider what prayer means in my world view and how it works for me. I believe personal prayer is a means of talking to ourselves in the medium of God. In prayer and meditation we can move from the immediacy of our own concerns and, in God, find a different context for our hopes or fears, a deepening of our joy and the possibility of an easing of our pain, we may be able to view our worries sub specie aeternitatis and we touch undifferentiated love.

Prayer is not a cry of Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!, nor is it a two-way conversation, rather it is a voyage of discovery and, of-course, it works so very, very well for me.

LSV, RE: "For prayer to make any sense, the following conditions need to be fulfilled:

1. A belief in God.
2. A belief in a personal God.
3. Actually knowing this personal God.
4. ...which means: a relationship.
5. Being willing to communicate within this relationship."

Is this right? I'm not so sure that it's senseless (perhaps not even wrong) to think of "mere going through the motions" of prayer as itself a kind of prayer.

I think it's entirely possible for someone to earnestly use and mean the statement "Please God let me pass this exam" as a statement of a wish for an outcome, with no such commitments as those outlined but simply a vague appeal to uncontrollable powers. Even if one doesn't have Christian beliefs, it would still be possible to learn how to follow the rituals and actions outwith learning about God (indeed, "sunday school" thrives on this). And it would be reasonable to call that act itself prayer, even if it seems like an incomplete kind of prayer.

Theophane on the Christian doctor who was dismissed by the government for "Very serious crimes against fashionable opinion."

Indeed. And Christians can expect the punishments for their "crimes" to become ever more severe as secularist opinion hardens against the perceived evils of traditional Christian beliefs.

Ian and Theophane,

His contract was terminated because he did not disclose material information about his past work at interview when had been explicitly asked to disclose such things.

The fact that the reports he was involved with in Maranatha are based on discredited 'science' from NARTH and that some other work came to light showing his grasp of causality within the drugs field was suspect are almost sidelines. It is he who is using them though as a smokescreen for his own failure to answer questions honestly.

Do you believe that misleading people who are interviewing you in order to get a post is acceptable christian behaviour.? It would not be acceptable secular behaviour.

This can hardly be described as a severe punishment anyway

On Prayer and Paedophilia.

I've mentioned before on here that I was abused by clergy as a child at a junior seminary in England. During that time my parents asked for permission from the priests for me to attend my aunt's final profession as a nun in France.

They refused at first but eventually relented and I was given permission to travel. We stayed in a small village called Dinard. It was my first ever time abroad and I fell in love with the place, the cobbled streets, the little cafes, etc.. The first evening I ordered French omlette and fries, to me at that time, French cuisine par excellence!

Unable to tell my parents about the horrors of what was going on back at the seminary, I had to return there, where the abuse continued. I got through it by dreaming of that beautiful French village and praying that one day I'd get to live there - a child's prayer, I suppose.

35 years later, after going public about the abuse and experiencing the horrors of an institution which cared more about protecting its own image than it did for its own children, my life fell apart. I was on the dole with no future and genuinely considered not walking this planet any more. I applied for various jobs within the church but was kicked into touch when google revealed that I had been critical of Ratzinger. (This is why I say on another thread that there are none so vicious as the religiously self righteous. I have experienced their venom first hand.)

During this time I was also forced to face some unpallatable truths about myself and to try to put the past behind me and grow up. Last year, I was contacted by a group of people in a French speaking village and was offered a post here.

I flew to this beautiful place with its cobbled streets and little cafes and they took me out to a nice restaurant to meet them. They told me to order whatever I wanted from the menu, steak, crevette, fois gras, whatever. I ordered French onlette and fries. They complained that I should choose something more expensive. I insisted that I wanted omlette and chips.

After the meal they asked had I enjoyed it. I told them that I had never had a more beautiful meal in my life. They seemed a bit perplexed.

I have now been here for six months and have this wonderful job in this beautiful place for the rest of my life. There is not a day I wake up where I dont thank God for the beautiful things he has done for me. I have no other option than to believe that he did indeed hear the tears of a twelve year old trapped in a crypt with monsters, 35 years ago.

My parishioners are people who have lived all over the world and have experienced the church universal. They will not be hemmed in to a narrow Roman mindset - pay, pray and obey. (Actually, if you look deeper, its a Spanish mindset. All these conservative sects in the RC Church at the moment emanate from Spain.) They want Mass, not in French or German, and definitely not in some dead language from the middle ages. They want it in English, their language.

There is no one sitting in the pews taking notes, armed with a stamped and addressed envelope to the local Bishop. They are educated adults who genuinely listen to the word of God and try their best to practice it in their lives. It is a pleasure to serve them.

I consider myself the parish priest of paradise and my prayers, my deepest yearnings have been answered in a way which, six months ago, was an impossibility. Encroyable!

I am also acutely aware that for many, even most, victims of clergy sexual abuse, their stories did not end happily, but rather in suicide, alcohol or substance abuse, dysfunction, inability to form deep relationships, unhappiness. I consider myself to be one of the lucky ones. Aware of my good fortune, I will continue to challenge the clericalism, lack of accountability and conservatism that allowed these things to flourish in the first place.

Thanks for your post RJB.

Good to hear you are enjoying la vie en france!

French omelette for me too, tonight.

This article that I read today just goes to show that it's not just the West and Middle East that suffers from an overbearance of adherance to pointless superstitions.

The Japanese are always very careful to portray themselves as modern, advanced and secular, but it seems their society is as crippled by traditional ways of thinkings as we are.

that's funny - I was going to say in my post I'll have a french omelette next time I'm in france (with chips of course!) .....looks like will be french omelettes all round!

Natman (@ 19) -

Whatever the Japanese view of traditional religious practices and living in 'spooky' properties might be, we need to consider why so many Japanese young people are committing suicide. Could it not be a problem of the advanced, technological society in which they live?

If work and competition (survival of the fittest) is the only meaning that people can put into their lives, and then some fail to keep up (which is inevitable in a winner-loser society), it is hardly surprising that some people lose the will to live.

I really cannot see what there is in 'science' that could possibly solve this problem, since science does not (and, by its very nature, cannot) speak into these issues. Is it not a great irony that the country at the forefront of manufacturing labour saving robots, seems to be a place of endless work and destructive stress? OK, correlation not causation, but it does seem to suggest that real peace cannot come through technology.

Certainly if I believed that I was nothing more than a mindlessly assembled bag of chemicals, whose only purpose in life was to be a worker ant in the great technological machine (a.k.a. materialistic secular society), I think I would feel more than a little 'down' about my existence!!

Dave;

To quote from the article,

"It is understood that during the interview process he was expressly asked if he had anything about his professional or personal history that might cause embarrassment to the government or the advisory panel."

He was perfectly entitled to believe that there was nothing "embarassing" about his research.

RJB;

"(Actually, if you look deeper, its a Spanish mindset. All these conservative sects in the RC Church at the moment emanate from Spain.)"

I take it you're not planning to attend the World Youth Day in Madrid with Pope Benedict this summer then! Seriously though, your story is genuinely moving, but there are painful stories even in the lives of the priests who did these terrible things. It happens i knew one, not learning about his behaviour until several years after first meeting him. He spent a considerable amount of time in a Japanese prisoner-of-war camp. It doesn't justify his actions - but we really don't know the psychological impact such things might have.

Was brilliant to read that RJB! Omelette, frites & a glass of white Burgundy would go down nicely right about now :P

Natman, to tie in some points you made in the *Homophobia kills* thread-
Christian values have been imported to China and Japan. The Protestant work ethic and much of Christian culture has been adopted , perhaps as you say without much of the spirituality or Religion that helped shape it. I would say the diversity in Christianity post Reformation-the proliferation of Protestant denominations was a very healthy, liberating factor in human society.Coupled with a renewed appreciation of Ancient Civilisations such as Greece & Rome etc. It's a slow process, but many concepts familiar to secular humanists can be found in Universal Unitarianists such as Second President of the US John Adams and his wife, first lady Abigail who advocated womens rights.

Adams always preferred Unitarian worship services. He wrote in 1823, "The most afflictive circumstances that I have witnessed in the lot of humanity are the narrow views, the unsocial humour, the fastidious scorn and repulsive tempers of all denominations excepting one."

Many can recognise that's still a state of play afflicting many Christian Churchs- in fact many other religions.

Although work ( good works) is seen in Protestant cultures as a way of serving God, It can't be over emphasised how important the belief in God is which enables people to work tirelessly to achieve the aims they set out to. The effect is very different if your work is borne out of simple competition with your peers & as LSV says

"If work and competition (survival of the fittest) is the only meaning that people can put into their lives, and then some fail to keep up (which is inevitable in a winner-loser society), it is hardly surprising that some people lose the will to live."

Although I do take issue with his view technology can't bring peace. I honestly feel much of the extremism in the world is driven by the harsh conditions in which we try to survive. I believe we will make better , more meaningful progress when we no longer have to fight like wild animals to put food on the table or shelter above our heads and live secure that we are not to be attacked in some way ( maybe that's the protective cushion driving capitalism)

Theophane, even if the Catholic Church had worries about opening up some of its troubling problems to outside vilification, wouldn't it be better to remove Priests from the roles they have , on the front line so to speak. Instead of being shifted from one Church to another why not protect both parties so they don't come into contact with one another by placing these troubled Priests in Monasteries

Ryan -

"Although I do take issue with his view technology can't bring peace."

Fair point. What I should have said is that technology alone cannot bring peace.

Ryan,

Precisely the measure you suggest had been taken with the priest i mentioned - he had been moved to a monastery. Of course adults who are a threat to children should be kept away from them, but it is certainly not only the Catholic Church which has failed on this count.

Theo

Of course there are moving stories and tragic events in the lives of paedophile priests. Every single - every single! - priest who has been found guilty of abusing children has claimed in court that he himself was abused as a child.

NO EXCUSE!! They had no mercy, no compassion. They were begged to stop doing what they were doing... and went right on and did it anyway.

My problem is with the system which will perpetuate this obscene behaviour. We are presently being taken back to a system where all of this horror can happen again.

We need - Collegiality, openness, dialogue, less authoritarianism from Rome, freedom within reason for the local church to run its own affairs, accountability, a say in who is appointed as Bishops, to listen to women, to focus on Christ's teaching NOT dogmatic theology AND to stop immediately hurting the "hand wringing liberals" slagged off in another post. They are your brothers and sisters!!

The people have to be given the freedom to give shape and form to the thing which has shaped and formed them.

Theo (again)

"But it is certainly not only the Catholic Church which has failed on this count."

Not good enough!! We are Catholics and have a responsibility to the just and good running of our Church. Pointing a finger elsewhere is not on, and in no way diminishes what happened and is happening in our Church.

Abuser priests - out! Bishops who enabled - out! Pope who failed in his responsibility - out! Catholics who defend abuser priests or who shift the blame elsewhere - out!

Such people must never be given positions of responsibility in our Church. Unfortunately, they are actually running our Church at the moment.

here, here RJB!!

Theophane @22,

Are you suggesting that he would not know that his views were unscientific and against all the known research (and embarrassing to whoever employed him), in which case he was incompetent, or that he did know and chose to hide it in which case he was dishonest. If the former then well done those who pointed it out and if the latter good riddance.

You can't have a lower level of honesty and have blind acceptance just because you are christian or do you think you can.?

The level of science that this guy uses from NARTH is equivalent to that used in answers in genesis, its the same warped analysis of cherry picked bits of information. He was employed to analyse data and come up with rational proposals - he obviously cannot.

Theophane

....but we really don't know the psychological impact such things might have.

No we don't, so why bring it up in a way which tries to mitigate what he has done unless it is to muddy the waters.

LSV, (re Japanese suicides)

The Japanese culture has a tradition of honourable suicide, whilst the death of someone in their home carries some lingering superstitions, the concept of using suicide as an honourable way out of life is still prevelant in their culture.

I think the main objection is people killing themselves in their homes, instead of finding a more secluded place outside to do it. Suicide never gained the religously inspired prohibition it has in the West.

Re. the article about Dr Hans-Christian Raabe :
Goodness knows the internet is not always a reliable source of information, but I read that Dr. Raabe's research used a 1998 document from the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Office which offered statistics on crimes committed by pedophiles. If so, was that document flawed? Or what part of his research is actually called in to question?
It also appeared that Dr. Raabe believed homosexual men had a higher rate of substance abuse and a link I saw on an Anglican site provided some studies that in just giving a brief glance, seem to concurr:
1. Stall R, Wiley J. A comparison of alcohol and drug use patterns of homosexual and heterosexual men: the San Francisco men's health study . Drug Alcohol Dependency. 1988;22:63-73.

2. Stall R, Paul JP, Greenwood G, et al. Alcohol use, drug use and alcohol-related problems among men who have sex with men: the Urban Men's Health Study. Addiction. 2001;96:1589-1601.

3. McCabe S et al Sexual identity and substance misuse among undergraduate students Substance Abuse 2003 24 77-91
I'm aware that studies & individuals can misuse data to futher an agenda but that can happen in many camps. We've seen in the States that business & industry as well can pay for research that is self serving.The old saying is that figures don't lie but liars can figure....

Dave;

"....but we really don't know the psychological impact such things might have.

No we don't, so why bring it up in a way which tries to mitigate what he has done unless it is to muddy the waters."

As i'm sure you know, there is a recognised condition called "Post Traumatic Stress disorder". It is, i believe, legitimate to suppose that he was affected in this way, in which case a jury would be asked to consider if they believe that his responsibility was diminished.

Mscracker;

That may be an old saying, but i'd never heard it, and it is a gem.

Theophane

A question I think you should answer for yourself:

Why are you so willing to make excuses for/be understanding of, men who abuse young children, yet so callous towards people you perceive to be liberal Catholics?

Theophane,

As i'm sure you know, there is a recognised condition called "Post Traumatic Stress disorder". It is, i believe, legitimate to suppose that he was affected in this way, in which case a jury would be asked to consider if they believe that his responsibility was diminished.

So is that a diagnosis from you then, I didn't realise you were a practising psychologist. Was he diagnosed as having PTSD or not and why would PTSD cause him to commit certain acts (it mostly seems to manifest in violence, depression, addictive behaviours, withdrawal and suicide). I'm not a psychologist but it's the first time I have heard it as a defence for child sexual abuse.

Was he diagnosed with PTSD ? or are just 'supposing'?

RJB, I think the answer is because we're pack animals. We often support our own pack or tribe, even when someone does something wrong, people will often stick up or offer mitigating circumstances for them. It would be great if we could somehow get away from that, but as social animals it's a pretty hard ask. You see it everywhere in society- Political, Religious, Tribal- people often remain partisan -loyal.

It's a thin line between loyalty as a virtue and it being damaging.
As Dave says re the Priest, you can't mitigate someones actions in that way. You'd hope the thinking would be more like- The last thing they'd want is anyone to ever go through what they've been through. The only reason why someone who's been through "x" would do "x" to another is to make another feel their pain,which is vindictive and cruel and worthy of jail time.

Im not sure if Theopane has thought about this, but Catholicism is a fairly conservative faith,similar enough to rub shoulders alongside Islam in some of its views. Why is it that 2 conservative religions with such strict views on sex and sexuality have some of the most appalling records when it comes to sex crimes? How twisted does a Priest have to be to systematically abuse children ( espcially if he's been subject to it himself)-when a Priests life is steeped in religion everyday and how twisted do the religious clerics / parts of muslim society have to be to allow a situation in Bangladesh where a girl gets raped, then accused of adultery, killed by a pack animal mentality & her parents made to pay money to the people responsible for raping and killing her. These are often the people who rant about souls,hell and wrath, yet have such abstract views of themselves when it relates to that

To use an analogy- I was watching cricket earlier today. The commentator was talking about a national team that lost alot of matches in a row and needed to rethink how they were going to win their next match - otherwise they'd get eliminated. They decided to give the team alot more freedom, on and off the pitch. Each player knew their responsability to each other and themselves in the game ,but they were alot more relaxed. They won their next match with the change in attitude. Maybe if some religious faiths did the same they might start being recognised for being a good influence in the world, rather than a bad one

Btw, Just to clarify (not sure if anyone's interested in Cricket), but it wasn't a new match - it was just a programme on the history of the Cricket World Cup

Dave;

Japanese prisoner of war camps were synonymous with sadistic cruelty and inhumanity. For all i know, this priest might not have been subject to any inhuman treatment, but in case he was, i'll only say again - we do not know the psychological impact such things might have. Do you think mitigating circumstances can apply to everyone else but not to priests? Of course i'm not making a diagnosis; no i'm not a psychologist, but something akin to PTSD might apply - if he did experience trauma.

RJB;

"Why are you so willing to make excuses for/be understanding of, men who abuse young children, yet so callous towards people you perceive to be liberal Catholics?"

Pope John Paul II described clergy child sexual abuse as "the mystery of evil" at work in the world; it is absolutely abhorrent behaviour. However, the very same mystery of evil applies in countless other circumstances. The word "callous" is a bit strong - don't you think? - but there are liberal Catholics who would essentially like to abolish the concept of "sin", exploiting the undoubted failures on the part of some members of the hierarchy as a pretext to further damage their authority.

The overwhelming bulk of child sexual abuse cases take place within families - and step-parents are much more likely to be implicated than biological parents. The original family unit has broken down - that is what causes terrible suffering to vast numbers of children, in all kinds of ways. Who, apart from the Church and other religious leaders (including those of Islam Ryan), are giving a clear message about the sanctity and central importance of marriage - for the benefit of everyone, but above all, the children?

Theo

Was this the same John Paul II who did nothing to stop abuse during his 25 years as Pope? Was this the same man who was best friends with the evil Maciel and who protected him allowing him to continue his abuse?

What has marriage got to do with any of this? (I can give you plenty examples of marriages which should rightly have broken up (especially years ago) and where couples stayed together out of duty to the church and did untold damage to the children.)

I am asking you to have a look at why your attitude lacks credibility and even defies logic. You attack one group for a relatively small matter and let another group off the hook for one of the most evil things in the history of the church.. Why? What is your motive here?

No one stole the authority from the Bishops except John Paul II and Ratzinger. It certainly wasnt abuse victims. The Bishops have no authority because they threw it away by their own cowardice. And they will never get it back until they start putting Christ's teaching into practice instead of living like feudal Lords.

This wont happen for a long time because there are plenty of brain dead, unquestioning, shallow people out there who see their faith as applauding every word emanating from hierarchical mouths. This, of course, is not faith at all, it is religious practice, a very different thing altogether. Religion = faith without integrity.

Will'll (am I the only one who finds that little contraction only slightly less silly than 'Will will'?) probably throw up another This Weeks Top Stories soon, and it may well mention this, but I'm going to pre-empt him.

.

I'm sure there's plenty believers in pseudo-sciences out there who'd object to this but, like their unsubstantiated theories, they don't have any evidence to argue their case.