ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ

Petrol price protests ??

If the police did break the law and go on strike, who would arrest them?

Request
Can Gerry Robinson visit the Police Service next please?

Mr Robinson failed to ask any patients about the problems they encounter at Rotherham Hospital, in accessing services or even just getting to the hospital. It would have been very interesteing to hear the "customers" points of view, and that might have explained why the new clinic is going ahead.

Bus loads of miners could keep striking police in order. There are huge discrepancies in rewards in our society which we haven't seen for many years whch may account for the return of behaviours reminiscent of Victorian times. Anyone dealing with the public appears to be vulnerable to unprovoked attack and by definition the police are in the front line of dealing with civil disorder. Apparently we need a spell of disadvantage to appreciate the negative aspects of inequalities.

An army of public servants created by New Labour under their 10 year job creation plan. However, certain groups do vital work and face extraordinary challenges that go well beyond traditional desk jobs. I refer to police officers, soldiers and fire officers. These critical services are essential. The public would support substantial pay rises that would adequately compensate and motivate these officers, and would welcome a corresponding reduction in non-critical bureaucratic costs, such as the mad ID card scheme. Who could blame the police for threatening strike action? The ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ Secretary should not resign - she should be dismissed. The country will not forgive New Labour if they drive the police to strike action.

I've just seen the report on Newsnight, about the report into toe extremist literature, and I really can't understand why you're putting so much effort into such a periperal issue. Surely your reporters have something better to do? I am not interested.

Horrendous report on the clear forgery that's been endorsed by Policy Exchange. This is Michael Gove's think tank. Why isn't this on the main evening news?

Gosh ! Dean Godson wasn't a happy chappy tonight was he ?

An excellent investigation into the Policy Exchange report. I am a little surprised at their response which fails to accept any of the forensic evidence revealed in the program. No doubt more will follow and I will watch events unfold with interest.

The man interviewed - Dean Godson - should be fired from his position, and the institute in question fully investigated. You wouldn't allow a Muslim organisation to publish a report stating that Jews were all liars and Theives, without checking the evidence. So why why accept a report from a Zionist think-tank when they say that British Muslims are all fire-breathing wife-beaters. I imagine much the of anti-Muslim "polls" and "reports" we never stop hearing about are built out of similar nonsense. A fine report. Bravo Newsnight!

newsnight, guys, you ROCK!!!
i cannot believe what you uncovered on the police exchange report. that is just what journalism should be about. i am shaking out of anger at the cynicism of the think tank, and i am not even muslim!

i hope you hit the headlines, again and again, i am now quite worried about how news are made, manipulated, but somehow reassured that guys like you are around.

i cannot swear or the comment might be edited ;) but god do i feel like it!!!

Nice to see the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ, and Paxman in particular, turned over by an honest man who stuck to his guns and refused to be browbeaten by Paxman.

This was a particularly biased and shoddy piece of "investigative" journalism and got short shrift from someone who did know what he was talking about, unlike Paxman. I would ask how much this cost the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ over six weeks but the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ doesn't like disclosing useful information about itself.

This really pointed up how shallow and lacking in thorougness ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ News is. Totally partial and determined to stick to a pre-conceived news "policy".

No wonder 1000 ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ journalists are about to lose their jobs. It almost makes you agree with Jonathan Ross about his equivalent worth.

Thank you, Jeremy, for your relentless pursuit of that objectionable little man from Policy Exchange. I had been wondering why I bothered with the licence fee since there is so little to justify it these days. Now, I know why - and I'll pay it gladly.

I've never seen Jeremy get quite such a kicking as he did by the chap from Policy Exchange. Nor have I seen such an unconvincing report take up such a substantial amount of time, whilst focussing on the reliability of a couple of minor items of evidence and completely ignoring the bigger issues. Interesting viewing but not a great advert for the quality of the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ's journalism.

I've just seen the report on Newsnight, about the report into extremist literature, and I really can't understand why you're putting so much effort into such a periperal issue. Surely your reporters have something better to do? I am not interested.

The policy exchange website call themselves the UK's leading centre-right thinktank, i believe that rather than centred right this is another organisation which is far right, how can an organisation base a report on fabricated evidence and still have the audacity to state that the evidence is authentic, when clearly the programme showed that the evidence is not genuine. For a minute i thought Jeremy Paxton was about to make the guy from the policy exchange cry.

Every kid in Britain will now want to be a forensic scientist or join
Newsnight! Well done guys! One of
the most riveting interrogations since Frost confronted Savundra!

Mr Robinson failed to look at the future of isoft and peoples health is directly related to the wealth of the nation.
Moreover we have a aging population and just look at hearing aid waiting times and why so long.
What does the DOH dept of health do ?
Also compare the trouble shooter from the early 1990s with sir john harvey jones and sir gerry robinson .
Has the NHS moved forward ?

Fight fight fight!

I never thought I would see the day 'Paxo' was left repeating himself with such a small amount of uninteresting material.

The Rep from The Policy Exchange (apologies to whom that may concern) had a well informed and researched answer to each of 'Paxo's' questions.

The issue of these 'receipts' has cast some doubt on the investigation but a whole interview based on 'receipts' instead of the real issues was not worthy of the best New programme in the world.

I should have liked to hear a response on the issues raised by The Policy Exchange.

Congratulations on the investigation into the faked research into extremist literature, just fantastic.

This is what I pay my licence fee for.

Policy Exchange Report is clearly based on dodgy evidences. Your guest, the director of the research of the policy exchange must resign immediately. Their fabricated evidences potentially put peoples' lives in danger, and had increased tension, hate and division.

Policy exchange. This is Michael Gove's think tank. Why isn't this evidence of forgery of highly emotive material on the main evening news?

Someone must remove that terrible man who heads the Policy Exchange. He is awful.

Every kid in Britain will now want to be a forensic scientist or join
Newsnight! Well done guys! One of
the most riveting interrogations since Frost confronted Savundra!

Amazing. Books can be legally bought that spew violence and venom at all classes and types of people who aren't the Wahhabi model of Islamist but does the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ liberal fascists condemn this? OOOH no ... God forbid. The ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ spends proceeds what - Β£20,000 - on researching wether the report by the Policy Exchange is 100% factual.

I suggest that the Policy Exchange has learned a lesson from the Islamic Faith in the Middle East.

No matter how many homicide bombings, women executed for adultery, Christians murdered in Iraq, or homosexuals abused, Islamists always tell us that Islamism means a hunky dory peaceful faith run by a gang of beatniks who are simply misunderstood by "fasicist westerners".

So, compared to the giant wicked lie we hear repeatedly from Islamic scholars, leaders and adherents, a few dodgy receipts really pale into insignificance. Are the books there? yes. Can the Protocols of the Learned Elders be bought in Central London is Islamic Education Centres and Bookshops? Oh yes. Is Mein Kampf a big seller in Arabic both in the Middle East and here in the UK? Yes.

I suggest the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ, if it is unhappy, pays a few of the many recently appeared asian reporters to investigate why Islaics have a deep and abiding love with Herr Hitlet, instead of churning out Islamic propaganda.

Doing a tiny little bit of research on Dean Godson from the Policy Exchange Think Tank says it all really.

"Dean Godson has a long history with neoconservatism, starting out as assistant to John Lehman, a signatory to the Project for a New American Century and Conrad Black. Bringing the ideas of neo-conservatism to the UK, Godson has compared Britain's 'late-imperial defeatism' with America's 'self-confident liberal interventionism."
Wikipedia.

It looks like the Neocons are trying to promote yet more hate over here!

Interesting to see Paxman getting annoyed when Newsnight was put in the dock by the interviewee.

The Chief Exec of the NHS lives in cloud cuckoo land. His mantra was "change". But change isn't a virtue unless what you end up with is better than what you started with. And by all measures the NHS is becoming more and more inefficient.

Your 17 min film on the Policy Exchange was dreadful and clearly prejudice. Please don't employ this format for future programmes: it's embarrassing to see such one-sidedness on the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ and not what I watch Newsnight for.

The solution can be found in Sir Gerry's approach, empower the staff and guide them to their own solutions. The Japanese do this through a principle called Kaizen - it has helped TOYOTA and HONDA to high quality and efficiency, it can help the NHS.

The fact that Newsnight/P.Barron/Richard Watson were even engaged in following through/hyping the original policy-exchange report shows where their (as policy-exchange's) instinctive prejudices actually lie.

Best in Bigotry.

Regards,

Quevoni

I have just watched the discussion (!) regarding the report from the Policy Exchange. Regardless of the evidence I find it alarming that they could suggest such literature should be withdrawn. Surely, if they are so concerned about community cohesion we might do better to respect freedom of speech, allow people to read the literature they choose and make way for debate on these issues rather than pushing such publications and attitudes underground.

The dubious research certainly doesn't give any weight to their recommendations!

As a nurse of over 35 years now working in the indepndant sector I could take any ward or department in any hospital with its allocated budget and not only run it more efficently I can turn a profit. I do this ever day every week every year running 32 bedded untis in the independant sector with far less income, guess what! I don't have the 15 layers of managers and we dont turn policies out every other week.

Your report about extremist literature was a fantastic work of investigative journalism that ought to be conglutinated to you. It clearly exposed the fabrication and fraud nature of Policy Exchange institute work.

Fight fight fight.... take him out Jeremy!

Thank you for having the courage to report on the policy exchange think tank work.

The attempt to avoid questions by their representative, personal attacks and attitude was shocking. This could have done more damage to their reputation than the rest of the report.

Those with influence have a duty to present a balanced view, even if that doesn't produce the best headlines.

An honorable researcher would have welcomed further analysis and clearly explained their position on it.

Your report about extremist literature was a fantastic work of investigative journalism that ought to be conglutinated to you. It clearly exposed the fabrication and fraud nature of Policy Exchange institute's work.

Policy exchange. This is Michael Gove's think tank. Why isn't this evidence of forgery of highly emotive material on the main evening news?

Jeremy, what a tragedy! Just at the point Gerry Robinson lined the question up for you to ask David Nicholson what the taxpayer has gained from the money spent on both the GP and the consultant contracts, you went for the easy target. The IT programme. The IT situation is well reported and it's failures well documented. When are we going to get some debate about the productivity and quality improvements actually delivered from the modernisation of the NHS pay system? I await some more NHS manager bashing to detract attention from the real issues!

Your report about extremist literature was a fantastic work of investigative journalism that ought to be conglutinated to you. It clearly exposed the fabrication and fraud nature of Policy Exchange institute's work.

It is reprehensible that Newsnight should aim its attack at the Policy Research Unit instead of condemning the sale of extremist literature wherever it is sold. Once again this is an example of Newsnight's biaised stance. It could have mounted a campaign to ban such detestable hate-filled texts. However, the Editor and Jeremy Paxman analysis was a platform to publicise these horrendous books.

The fact that Newsnight/P.Barron/Richard Watson were even engaged in following through/hyping the original policy-exchange report shows where their (as policy-exchange's) instinctive prejudices actually lie.

Best in Bigotry.

Regards,

Quevoni

Every kid in Britain will now want to be a forensic scientist or work
for Newsnight as an investigative reporter (apart that is from those who see a more lucrative career as
daily-paid litigators pursuing the Beeb - 'relentlessly, to trial or capitulation' (wonderful phrase!)
One of the best Paxo interrogations since Frostie pinned Savundra. What ever happened to him, I wonder [see Al Jazeera and the carbon footprint map of Qatar on the Newsnight site!]

Having now seen and listened to the chief executive of the NHS the only way to turn the organisation around would be to get rid of this chap and possibly other high officials who are clearly in the civil service mentallity and have no management ability whatsoever. Perhaps they are government appointments? The NHS needs managers who can organise, communicate and drive change within the organisation and keep politicians as far away from it as possible.

Have the MP's had their above inflation pay increase staged? If not why not?

There seemed to be a major conflict between the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ and Policy Exchange on factual information. The viewer is not in a position to judge who is telling the truth. From the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ's past behaviour on such issues, I suspect it may have seriously screwed up this time. The ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ had better make good on these serious accusations, and I do not think it has so far.

I have just watched the discussion (!) regarding the report from the Policy Exchange. Regardless of the evidence I find it alarming that they could suggest such literature should be withdrawn. Surely, if they are so concerned about community cohesion we might do better to respect freedom of speech, allow people to read the literature they choose and make way for debate on these issues rather than pushing such publications and attitudes underground.

The dubious research certainly doesn't give any weight to their recommendations!

One need look no further than the quality difference between Gerry Robinson and the CEO of the NHS. He has had only the access afforded to him in one area of the NHS and he had more to say than the Chief Executive, who knows (or should know) every nook and cranny of the system. Quality and calibre count. And Gerry made that clear. The man in charge of the NHS, supervisor of a Β£40Bn injection (incidentally, a substantial slug of our tax payments), has made no difference whatever. He can hardly quote anything beyond a Β£20 million project. He is a superannuated dinosaur of the Union age, without talent, who has made his way to where he is on a political agenda, and who is unable to manage (and has no experience to manage) the organisation that he has brow-beaten part of the rest of the world to let him take charge of.

Isn't this just New Labour? New hopes and new crapiness in charge. If the NHS were a public company, does anyone out there think that this would be the man at the helm? Or would he be a porter - or rise to being a Union rep?

He is just about the single argument needed for taking out and getting rid of a quarter of goverment spending. Lord, would it make a better country.

Gerry Robinson is SO right about the waste in the NHS. He points out precisely what is causing the waste; the continuous and often contradictory changes in Government policies for the NHS; the introduction of a ludicrously expensive and time-consuming "agenda for change" programme of matching jobs and pay for admin & nursing staff across the UK;the inflated pay awards for consulting staff; AND somewhere, someone is laughing all the way to the bank where computing systems and the NHS are concerned!!!!
But hey-guess who is paying for this?
YET , just look at the GOOD WORK, the DEDICATION and the SINCERITY of those at the front line of caring for the sick, those whose pay in no way reflects their skill and judgement.......
Gerry Robinson has got it SO right!!!!

Newsnight's treatment of the mosque literature story was apparently motivated by cowardice in the face of political incorrectness.

I found the clear bias in Jeremy's treatment of the Centre for Social Cohesions's spokesman inexcusable. He failed to understand how clear to the viewer it was that Newsnight's own integrity was on the line, not merely that of the CSC.

Did Newsnight really expect the public to believe the reasons forwarded for your abandonment of the duty to present the original report?

Had Newsnight brought up the issues of the receipts in proper context, alongside the real issue of the hate literature, fine. But it was clear that the whole weasely report was produced in order to defend Newsnight's own decision to pull out and not publicise the report.

Added to which JP attempted to blindside and bully the CSC spokesperson. Fortunately, he aquitted himself and the report admirably.

Journalism is supposed to be an honourable and fearless profession; only a few months back, JP was himself challenging the media institutions to look at their own standards. What hypocrisy.

The public must be thankful that people like those who run the CfSC have the moral courage to air the REAL issues that rightly concern people.

It's been asked before, and no doubt some will ask again:
/blogs/newsnight/2007/12/crime_and_statistics.html
Who are the 'terrorists'...? And who are put in the frame?

Re Feature on suspect Policy Exchange research data.

Cogratulations to Newsnight on a brilliant piece of investigative journalism regarding the suspect data collected by researchers on behalf of the Policy Exchange.
The ludicrous response of that organisation and its director to Newsnight's findings must surely bring their integrity intp question and one hopes that not too many millions of taxpayers money are funding their work ?

I am amazed by the way in which the research director of the 'think tank' Policy Connection seemed incapable of keeping his cool. He seemed to become more and more frustrated and it was obvious that he was squirming.

Clearly extremism is not to be promoted, and that is something with which the majority of people will agree. However, to stir up hatred - or at least cause an unnecessarily uncomfortable situation to arise for many people of different faiths - based on a report containing evidence that, whilst not 'false' may not be as reliable as it is purported to be could be considered equally abhorrent to a sensible and reasoned society.

What do other readers/viewers think?

What a fascinating piece the investigation into the report by the Policy Exchange on extremist literature was. Even if the receipts were a minor part, they should have been checked by the report authors. Taking the word of those who obtained them might be polite, but hardly through. It was quite right of Newsnight not to accept them at face value and to examine the receipts literally to a forensic level. Well over half the programme spent on this subject, ending with the morbid fascination of watching someone's career surely gurgle down the drain.

I trust, and trust is the key word, that Newsnight will now question the findings of other reports, such as those produced by the IPCC, and subject the reports they pick and choose to use as evidence to equally close examination, as well as those reports they choose not to use, rather than presenting them as, if I may be allowed the pun, gospel.

The shocking revelations about the Policy Exchange document call into question the credibility of the thinktank.
I also found the Policy Exchange's research director's antics during the interview deplorable.

Re your item about the NHS: please keep hammering this and don't let another year go by!
It must have been so exasperating for Mr Robinson to talk with the CEO of the NHS but frequent such meetings on Newsnight might perhaps achieve results? It is wonderful to see how Robinson has improved Rotherham Hospital: if only HE could be put in charge of the NHS.

Having watched the case against the Exchange Policy report - I fail to see what point the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ made.
The Mosques/Centres admitted having the literature, admittied having a problem with Rogue Traders, did not refute the content of the report, and Paxman apparently got his facts wrong.

I am not usually a supporter of neo con think tanks such as Exchange Policy, however the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ made them look more credible by putting together a very low grade package and then being caught out lying.

It seems as if the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ have taken a different slant and is attacking Muslims by making right wing Think Tanks look good. Even Paxman look flustered and for once got his facts wrong.

Come on guys (ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ) get your act together and employ some better researchers and stop insulting your audience. Even Watson was contradicting himself - constantly.

I wonder if I can get a rebate on my TV License? - The ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ used to be a name that I could trust!!

I have just watched the discussion (!) regarding the report from the Policy Exchange. Regardless of the evidence I find it alarming that they could suggest such literature should be withdrawn. Surely, if they are so concerned about community cohesion we might do better to respect freedom of speech, allow people to read the literature they choose and make way for debate on these issues rather than pushing such publications and attitudes underground.

The dubious research certainly doesn't give any weight to their recommendations!

Dean Godson is a zionist and his agenda was exposed in his debate with Inayat Bunglewala of the Muslim Council a couple of months back. Watch it here:

The Chief Exec of the NHS is on another planet. His mantra was "change". But change isn't a virtue unless what you end up with is better than what you started with. And by all measures the NHS is becoming more and more inefficient.

I hope Newsnight follows up on the Mosque receipts story. This is nothing short of scandalous (or at least, potentially so).

What really worries me is the motivation behind the Policy Exchange organisation, given that they seem to be utterly unconcerned by clear evidence of fabrication and deception.

I'll miss Boozenight tomorrow - I'm going out for a drink!

Richard Watson is interesting. I wouldn't mind going out for a drink with him. He has this sort of of Knight errent look one could imagine him in the Crusades

some of the mosque's are no angels but I was disgusted with arrogance of the policy exchanges headman. He seems to be the next edition of Neocons, propagating the philosophy of "means are not important as long as you achieve the desired ends"

It is reprehensible that Newsnsight aimed its attack at the Policy Research Unit instead of mounting a campaign to condemn the publication and sale of such hate-filled literature. Once again the Editor and Jeremy Paxman allowed the programme to be used as a platform to publicise these divisive texts and sentiments.

not impressed with your piece on the the Policy Exchange report on hate literature in mosques.
No attempt to discuss the report's findings with the mosques...the report even found one hate book on sales at a mosque, but the Beeb instead attacked the report over the quality of the receipts!
I normally like Pacman's style, but tonight he didn't quite seem to have the convictions of his questions... he didn't want to admit that the hate literature research was valid and not denied by the mosques.

There seemed to be a major conflict between the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ and Policy Exchange on factual information. The viewer is not in a position to judge who is telling the truth. From the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ's past behaviour on such issues, I suspect it may have seriously screwed up this time. The ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ had better make good on these serious accusations, and I do not think it has so far.

Fantastic ding dong with Policy Exchange tonight - more please!
But the questions Godson needs to answer weren't asked: Does he have total confidence in the research paper he produced, the evidence and the researchers? And does the strong possibility of forgery affect his confidence to the extent that he will look again at all the evidence?
But that's live television, I guess.

re dean godson interview - great dramatic televison. thank goodness it was jeremy paxman - he's the only one robust enough to withstand such thunderous apoplexy. i wonder if the policy exchange will take things to court. these are the sort of people that form political agendas - you'd think they'd put great store by the impeachability of the evidence that they cite.

Presumably, the 7/7 and 21/7 suicide bombers got their hands on plenty hate literature. And MI5 inform us that there are a 1000+ members of islamic radical groups plotting. I wonder where they got/get all their hate literature. Is Newnight maintaining that none of it comes from mosques? Pull the other one.

Why is there such disparity in the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ's coverage of Muslim establishments compared to other religious establishments? If such extreme books ('Women who deserve to go to Hell' was shown on the bookshelf in the Newsnight report) were avaliable for purchase from Church of England shops or websites, I do not think the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ would have focused on the authenticity of researchers receipts.

The yardstick against which extremism is judged should not differ depending on the religion under discussion. It seems that Newsnight cannot see the books for the receipts.

How to make a receipt look dodgy!

That's simple take one receipt and put it on top of another. Next take a pointed plastic object ( a cocktail stick will do, or a pen with a sharp plastic top ) and trace over the writing of the receipt sitting on top. Remember to press quite firmly. After doing that contact a forensic document scientist and ask if the receipt on the bottom contains any impressions from the receipt on top.

I rest my case.

The forensic analysis of documents was fantastic! They take validation issues very seriously in the war crimes tribunal in The Hague for
which that expert had apparently
given evidence. And the threats
made to the investigation by the
lawyers - we will pursue the issue
'relentlessly, to trial or capitulation' - will enter the lexicon of great investigative
journalism. The interview with
Dean Godson was also riveting:
one of the best since Frostie
confronted Emil Savundra ...?

I am a RETIRING healthcare professional currently working for a PCT. I AGREE with Gerry Robinson 100% with his annalaylis of the NHS situation. The current NHS Chief Executive would not get a comparable job on the private sector because he IS NHS management! Grown up in that and prospered through that! In private commerce/industry he would have been out on his ear long before he reached the kind of job he has now!

The NHS does not need to make a profit, BUT it surely does NOT have to make the PHENOMENAL losses it makes every single month/quarter/year through the gross incompetence of its "professional" managers (NHS trained).

IF each PCT and Acute Trust was made to be autonamous, standing on its own merits, yet controlled by a central management, similar to the way the Bank of England is now run, at the same time making those holding the top jobs accountable for the WASTE and inefficiencies, then we could all start to hope for better things.

Politicians could take a back seat from driving an unwieldy and cumbersome body by targets and protocols, confident that the people in charge are trained to be commercial managers who will fall on their swords for them (may be).

If all middle and District managers were Business trained in the Commercial/Industrial sector, they could be paid high salaries as long as the losses were erradicated and the whole systems ran as an efficient non-profit service for the public who fund it. To ensure their success, Marketeers should be employed as a lynch pin between Executive management, Finacial Dept., "Production" managers, Education managers, Supplies managers etc.

It's no good trying to supply something that the public want without the background service to provide it. Where that service is being supplied very successfully down the road it's no good trying to duplicate the same thing on a shoe string in the next district, especially by funding the education for the professional staff out of NHS funds. (This has been Mooted in our PCT where there is no expertise amongst any of the managers to train professional beyond the present scope of their already comprehensive practise knowledge).

The problem is that the PCTs at district and local level are managed by healthcare professionals who have been elevated BEYOND their competence to manage. In their own fields they are most probably good leaders,BUT not managers, where it comes down to dealing with millions of pounds worth of Public Money. They do not have the Business acumen to allocate these funds without favour to their own special veiw of their involment with their fundemental chosen profession. This often is in conflict with other members of other professions whose departments are left wanting.

I included most of this rhetoric in my resignation letters to my immediate manager, the Chief Executive of my PCT and the Chairman of that same PCT. No replies have been received. I leave my post next Monday, 17th December 2007, happy to look forward to being paid for NOT going to work for the NHS.

Demoralisation is a problem and will continue to be, among the professionals who actually do the work, who seem to be dispensable, are not paid the right amount of salary (especially compared to incompetent and inefficient management)and have no prospects any more for a more rewarding employment within the service.

The report against Policy Excxhange was so obviously a stich up.

I pray at one of the mentioned mosques and I can assure you that these books are still there.

If it is about rcpts, I have bought books from there over the last 2 years, and I have had at least 3 different rcpts.

Mosques are not conglomerates that they have professional people working for them and in some cases official rcpts have had spelling mistakes. Ask any Muslim that donates to a Mosque. This is why MINAB is such a good idea. To help upskill them.

The guy with the duffle coat was obviously lying !!!!!

(((oops, i got my email address wrong the first time round. apologies!))

re dean godson interview - great dramatic televison. thank goodness it was jeremy paxman - he's the only one robust enough to withstand such thunderous apoplexy. i wonder if the policy exchange will take things to court. these are the sort of people that form political agendas - you'd think they'd put great store by the impeachability of the evidence that they cite.

I was absolutly horrified by this report as a briton first and as a muslim briton second with iraqi origin. I second the comment of William above, WHY IS THIS NOT ON THE MAIN EVENING NEWS as was the original report since these reports do so much damage in a world where we really need to be united against extremism in all its forms; after all,we are all seeking the same things, peace, happiness and good health. Thank u Mr.Barron, thank u jeremy.

Your berating tonight of the organisation who reported on the Muslim book scandal is like berating the troops who liberated the concentration camps because they didn't report the fact that they got a parking ticket when they parked their truck in the camp car park.

I was hoping at the end of the report to see John Cleese say "and now for something completely different" but alas he didn't so I assume the report was prepared as a favour to Al Quaeda or the director of the programme is a fool, or both.

Well done, Newsnight, for a good piece of investigative journalism on the Policy Exchange report. Who's behind all this? MI5? MI6? We need more investigative journalism like this on the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ.

Godson should realise that if you're going to lose an argument, you may as well do it with a little grace.

If politicians require research, they should employ independent academics not a think tank with a clear agenda.

The fact that Newsnight/P.Barron/Richard Watson were even engaged in following through/hyping the original policy-exchange report shows where their (as policy-exchange's) instinctive prejudices actually lie.

Best in Bigotry.

Regards,

Quevoni

The package and interview on the Policy Exchange report were phenomenal. A brilliant piece of investigative journalism. Dean Godson came across like a crazed zealot. Of course some of these mosques are supplying some unpleasant literature. But he seemed to think that justified fabricating the evidence. They probably could have saved themselves the trouble and published on the basis of what they had seen. I will never know why he didn't just say that they took the allegations seriously, would investigate and then re-do the report with a better evidence base. He obviously hasn't had his media handling training. Peter - I think your stewardship is great. Genius.

A group of us that are all Muslims have been awake discussing this particular programme and we have been going round and round in circles.

The conclusion is that we have not come to any conclusion other than the fact that the film before the interrogation of policy exchange was probably the most one sided film that we have ever seen. If I was the chap from the think tank, I would not have appeared. He was bullied of the set.

Whether the evidence was fabricated or not, Jeremy lost the discussion as he was poorly briefed and did not let the guy from the think tank speak. Newsnight fell into the trap of trying to over sell its case and it did not come accross well. It was strange that Jeremy was saying no one spoke to the researchers and the other guy said that someone had. I would like to know who was tetelling the truth?

Can someone tell me if printing on a home printer is against Shariah?

Congratulations to Messrs Watson and Paxman for their critical approach to the evidence produced on the Policy Exchange report.

Far too many such "reports" are little more than repetitively thick wads of paper designed to mislead, along the lines made popular by Mr Blair's infamous bogus Intelligence about Irak.

I hope some of the injured Islamic parties referred go on to prosecute Policy Exchange for its fabrications.

As a regular viewer of Newsnight I was disappointed with your so called exsposee of The Policy Exchange Institutes report.
I thought your report lacked balance and missed the point. Nevermind some inconsistancies in some aspects of the evidence, the fact remains, which your reporter confirmed, that inflammatory and inciteful reading material is available in these mosques. Surely this should be acknowldeged by Newsnight.
I agree with Dean Godson, this programme was subject to poor editorial direction.

What with the Neoconservative Policy Exchange Think Tank, and the Labour Freinds of Israel, it is about time that British people woke up to realise that the UK has been hijacked by Israeli/US policy!

It is bad form to accuse someone of lying and then get caught out yourself (Jeremy - get some better researchers)

Thank goodness it was Paxman, as anyone else would have looked even more foolish!!!!

Brilliant report on the forgery of documents attempting to push forward the aims of the Policy Exchange think tank. This sort of program should be what journalism always aspires to. Bravo Newsnight (this should have been in the main news), and bravo Paxo for making Dean Godson squirm and bluster in such a way as to show the think tank for what it is: a propaganda machine for the Neoconservative/Zionist lobby that will stop at nothing to promote its lies.
Absolutely fascinating. Now, could/would the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ have the guts to produce a program on the Policy Exchange think tank itself and the history of its members.

Dear Peter Barron

Today is a very sad day for all moderate Muslims in the UK especially the ones that work with you.

You have made compelling cases in the past against extremism within the Muslim community and have employed some excellent counter balances against a minority that would hijack a faith. I am referring to the likes of Shiraz Maher, Ed Husein, Majid Navaz, Haris Rafique and others.

In one episode of trying to justify a decision not to broadcast, you have undone all the good work that you have done. There were too many inconsistancies in your report e.g. You failed to mention that according to Godson, the forensic scientist said that the sample was too small for for a definative conclusion. This now puts doubt on your integrity. BTW, did Jeremy know that this was the case?

I wonder if the people above will recognise that you could turn on them as well? Or maybe you pay them well enough for them not to notice?

Ah well, there is always Bunglawala!! Have you had a congratulationary note from the MCB? Did you even know that the majority of mosques that you were defending today are the same ones that you have been criticising since 7/7 ?

Please make up your mind -- who are the good guys? Do you even know?

Other than a few well fed articles (by certain individuals),to Richard Watson - what does he actually know about Islamism?

Does he know that he has just defended the very same people that he criticises heavily? (https://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article2745080.ece )
In the above article he writes - "The voice of the Muslim majority still goes unheard"

WELL RICHARD, YOU HAVE JUST IGNORED THE MAJORITY BY FOCUSSING ON 5 (OR WAS IT 6 - RICHARD SAID 5 AND JEREMY SAID 6)!!!!!!!!!

Shame on you. The House is on fire and you are arguing as to what colour the curtains are !!!!!

I DARE any of the above to trust you (newsnight) any more. If they do --- They are the fools.

Was it me or did Newsnight give the location of the researchers??

I am no expert, but would not these people be accused of being apostates? If that is the case, what does the literature of the books prescribe as their punishment?

Nice on Newsnight for putting these peoples lives in danger.

btw - even if you didnt leak the news to the Times as as alleged by Godson, you certainly leaked the fact that these guys are in seclusion in Mauratania. Let me guess.... where are the well known retreats are there in that country?

Somebody please warn these people?

Somebody plase help the guys in Mauratania?

So how many people/"Brain-washed"/stooges has Policy-Exchange got to make sure they blog and spread their disinformation across the interweb - "Lie early and lie everywhere" , often under the guise of reformed or "moderate" muslims -Like Alex Ferguson would ever attack Manchester United!

Anyone who really knows islam would know it's the fundemental Muslims that are most plural -they hold themselves to a higher standard then they expect non-believers, [see jerusalam] it's the fact that we've so moved off the centre that the self-indulgent among us percieves them as the fundamentalists without looking at ourselves!

Best regards,

QUEVONI

So how many people/"Brain-washed"/stooges has Policy-Exchange got to make sure they blog and spread their disinformation across the interweb - "Lie early and lie everywhere" , often under the guise of reformed or "moderate" muslims -Like Alex Ferguson would ever attack Manchester United!

Anyone who really knows islam would know it's the fundemental Muslims that are most plural -they hold themselves to a higher standard then they expect non-believers, [see jerusalam] it's the fact that we've so moved off the centre that the self-indulgent among us percieves them as the fundamentalists without looking at ourselves!

Best regards,

QUEVONI

"hello, can i have a receipt for this book."

Why women should burn in hell. I wonder what that book can tell us, is it hate filled? i don't know as i have never read it but i can imagine that if it sits on the shelf of an Islamic book shop shelf, i will happily wager a few quid that its not about a fluffy bunny rabbit called Mohammed.(careful now).

I think newsnight finally fell flat on its face with this particular report on the 'dodgy reciepts' story. Paxmon the ever consummate professional may have held his ground with the most piffy argument that some receipts may not be genuine whilst your guest fired bombshells at the Newsnight team. I liked the way Peter Baron's name was dragged into the discussion.

Go into any specialized book shop, and make a request for a reciept whilst purchasing a book, its not a request normally asked by a customer or heard by the book seller(jihadi books r us are not like Whsmith or waterstones). No doubt the reshearchers found it difficult obtaining a reciept for some controversial religious texts and maybe decided to be a little bit creative with providing 'proof of purchase'.. Whatever, these Islamic bookshops do sell literature that may and do offend and we are all aware of that, its the nature of that particular religion. The discussion, if you can call it that, between Paxman and your guest from the Policy Exchange was frankly the best i have seen on newsnight for a long time; sadly though, the Newsnight team may have left themselves seriously exposed to ridicule with this particular story. .

p:s how Paxmon was able to turn to Stef Flanders and switch to another story with ease considering that heated exchange was an almost mystical moment.

Well done to Newsnight for putting Policy Exchange on the spot. It is utterly ridiculous of that little man to claim that there is even a hint of authenticity in his inflammatory report, after Newsnight presented their unbelievably crude mistakes which are tantamount to forgery. It is irresponsible and down-right criminal for a pro-zionist 'centre' right think tank to report such an implacating report on what is clearly fake evidence.

As a Muslim, i've now become more wary of all similar reports. And i feel Jeremy didnt push their spokesman enough, Jeremy usually has his kind for breakfast.

Well done that man! Paxman's head to head with the writhing, intellectually dishonest Dean Godson was a joy and revived my interest in Newsnight where standards were previously slipping.

I note there are a number of "Muslims" who have posted here lauding the likes of Haris Rafique and Ed Hussain (all Policy Exchange darlings and none of whom either have recognition or credibility within the Muslim community) as well as other pseudo-lobbying posts sympathising with the apoplectic Mr Godson. The ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ should check for trolling.

@91, Fletcher,

If you're going to go down that route, then you also might want to reference the sacking of Dan Rather at CBS for getting 'minor' details wrong, ditto the whole point of the Hutton report/gilligan affair forcing sweeping changes and resignations at the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ.

The Policy-Exchange, and the PR that they pursued for their ideolgy, as well as all those lazy and bigoted journalists who followed their trail, are/were part of a campaign that knew from it's initiation that it would breed hatred and devisiveness -not least by highlighting the 25% over the 75%, and now in the light of this new information, how many of those 25% wre fabrications, minus normal society where management don't know everything that happens -or do you want brown to resign for losing those 2 disks????

Will this story get the same column inches as the original reports!

Comfortable in your ignorance, regards,

QUEVONI

on the policy exchange report
What can I say, absolutely hilarious, well done newsnight for exposing this charade of a report and the hidden agenda of this organisation.

The important point about the threats to religious harmony was fabulously missed, by the ill researched Newsnight report. Whether or not there are doubts about the validity of some receipts; the point that 26 centres out of 100 investigated were allowing the sale of inflammatory literature, was not in dispute.
By concentrating his fire on the receipts aspect in his interview with Dean Godson, Jeremy Paxman diverted attention away from the key issue of; β€œwho is selling this literature and why?”
The end result was that, for the first time, Jeremy Paxman was made to look ill briefed in an interview.

Re-Posts 88 and 94.
Bang on Reza if I may say so. Barron's stewardship
sound and striving, which is all one can do.
Re-Post 92.
Thank you John Smith. A rider mentioning the influence of US/Israeli influence on 'British' foreign and other policies should be added to oh so many news items.
Also,in a more general sense, didn't the Policy Exchange piece illustrate the unfathonable complexity of modern life, particularly when seen through the media focus?

Unbelievable. A research institute is suppose to research. That means going out to find whether a hypothesis is true.

If it fakes evidence to show that that hypothesis is true, then it calls into question everything that research institute does.

Those who think the Newsnight's report is "minor" or "irrelevant" compared to what they see as the extremism of Islam are clearly nuts. If they believe that's the case, then they must understand that the Policy Exchange has now made it harder for anyone to take those accusations seriously.

If Dean Godson had any credibility at all he would have taken the criticisms on the chin and agreed on full disclousure instead of trying to bluster his way through them. He's clearly not a researcher in any sense of the word - he's an extremist ideologue.

Blimey. Now I learn from this talkback page that the researchers are apparently apostates - something that wasn't made clear. People posting here are obviously more privy to the researchers' methods than the rest of us.

Anyone studying religions seriously would not allow apostates to conduct the bulk of research on topic like that. That's not to discount apostates' viewpoints, but in terms of honest research apostasy is in itself a probable bias. Little surprise then that the research came up with precisely the material it set out to find.

Sir We have no World in Action, This Week.....just Panorama and Newsnight and we should be grateful. Jeremy's destruction of the odious Dean Godson was good television and worthy of the licence fee. Who are these people who want to take us back to the fourth century...heads should roll, sorry, that's their game isn't it.

Amazed to see JP out-gunned by the Policy Exchange interviewee. He didn't seem to be fully briefed and or convinced about his argument(s). I hope this discussion will be restaged once both sides have gone off and cleared up the facts. It sounded as if the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ hadn't given the Policy Exchange time enough to look at the complaints that were being made against the report.

PS why does this page relist the same posts over and over again?

The author of the report from Policy Exchange, Denis MacEoin describes in himself β€œa deepening belief that the future of civilization comes down to Israel in one way or another. If Israel goes, the values that have sustained Western civilization will have gone with it. We aren't simply fighting a war on terror, we're fighting for values that once seemed certain to survive and are now being threatened, above all by an unreformed Islam. For every liberal who chants 'Islam is a religion of love and peace', I can find a score of Quranic verses and hadiths that say quite the opposite. Politicians and the public must be educated.”

I’m surprised this context was not provided by Newsnight.

Who benefits from poisoning the uk muslim relations?

the average british person looks at those whose elaborate hate makes them create deceptions with a bit of bemused amusement?

Brilliant investigative report by the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ into the "think-tank" Policy Exchanges "report".

Policy Exchange is a farce!

It’s quite sad that the evidence presented by Newsnight will not make the front-pages in national newspapers but the original "report" did and was widely discussed.

Policy Exchanges vile views and so called evidence just further stigmatises certain institutions who are actually trying to better the things for the wider community through out reach and interfaith work as mentioned.

The truth does always in the end come out....and it has done! Just like the WMDs and the Iranians with their β€œNuclear Weapons”.

Paxman was brilliant and truly at his best on last nights show!

Well done.

B

Re post 102 from cookie

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON.

Newsnight devotes half a programme to complaining about a dodgy receipt from a bloke at a car boot sale when the bloke himself is selling the equivalent of enriched plutonium. You couldn't make it up.

It's a shame the Policy Exchange bloke couldn't have kept his cool a little better because, had he have done, he would have destroyed Paxman.

Re: the Policy Exchange feature - I think you did an absolutely fantastic job, and Paxman could have been very savage but masterfully just sat back and watched Dean Godson make a complete buffoon of himself. To the criticisms on this board of that feature, I would say it is not the responsibility of Newsnight to have to cover every angle of a controversy.
The one you focussed in on was the one aspect you could actually independently research yourselves - and I think it important to remember you were covering the accuracy of the report not the contents of the report - and give or take the odd speculative point your findings were clear, relevant and very very damning to Policy Exchange indeed.

The revelations about the policy exchange document do call into question the credibility of this "think tank". I also found both the policy exchange's research director's and jp actions during the interview deplorable.

As for the credibility of some receipts, almost half the program was spent on this subject and not much on the content of the report or its conclusions, not very balanced
in my view.

No attempt to discuss the report with the Mosques or Islamic leaders!

No attempt to discuss if the books were ever on sale in mosques and or mosque related bookshops, or not!

No attempt to discuss the content of the hate literature with the Mosques or Islamic leaders!

What is jp afraid of? That he might just become the next target of a misunderstood or misunderstanding islamofascist?

As for policy exchanges conclusion regardless of the evidence I still find it alarming that they could suggest such literature should be withdrawn. We need to keep it so we can show what a non religion Islam really is. Islam means submission, not peace the only people who believe Islam means peace are people who believe every thing George Bush and Tony Blair say.

Whats the follow up piece here?
An interview with the authors of these hate books mentioned in the report? (Probably not PC enough)
An interview with the Islamic scholars about the Islamic view of these hate books mentioned in the report? (Probably not PC enough either)
I know get all the reports ever written by the policy exchange and find any holes problems etc and make a big story about every comma in the wrong place and β€œT” not crossed and β€œI” not dotted.

Congratulations Newsnight on a first-class report into Policy Exchange - one of the best pieces i have seen on the programme for years. Watching Dean Godson make a complete fool of himself, and his employers, was fascinating.

Well done Gerry I watched both your programs and felt as frustrated as you with the lack of common sense in the NHS. I have worked in the medical industry for over 20 years and what you found is just the tip of the ice burge. The companies that supply the NHS mark up good between 40% and 500%.This is under the pre text of development cost which should disapear after a set number of units have been sold. However the NHS procurment procedure is run by the old school tie regime which costs the NHS millions. The government and Department of health throw money at problems instead of getting to the root cause. Sadly I think the NHS is similar to the titanic doomed to failure unless a large dose of common sense is injected imeadiatly. Again well done Mr Robinson.

Like so many on the right, Dean Godson of Policy Exchange is clearly not used to being challenged or contradicted, and it brought him up very short. These people just don't seem to be able to cope outside of their echo chambers, showing how empty their rhetoric is.

Oh dear Newsnight's ambush of the Policy Exchange Director backfired big time. Although given no chance to prepare for JP's attack, The interviewee Dean Godson acquitted himself well and seemed to flummox Jeremy Paxman by deflecting the spotlight on Peter Barron's and Newsnight's obvious and still unexplained failure to have dealt with the main substance of the original report. Watson's lengthy preamble was convoluted and littered with equivocation. Much of the visuals consisting of the staged poses of mosque representatives whose denials were simply accepted at face value. Over all the Watson fronted accusation seemed forced and rather petty. That the Newsnight response to the very serious substance of the report consisted of an attack on the authenticity of a few receipts worryingly echoes the West Midlands Police response to the Channel 4 documentary. - (Kick the dog that barks rather than focus on what the dog is barking at !) Seen in the context of an editorial policy that has recently allowed a lengthy HT propaganda piece to appear, perhaps there is even more to be concerned about.

I felt Paxman acquitted himself well against Mr Godsen last night, but I found it increasingly uncomfortable viewing, largely because Paxman seemed to have very little material behind him, and some of it appeared inaccurate. On the face of it Godsen did himself no favours, coming across as belligerent, angry and resorting to sneering personal attacks, but he may have had good reason to be angry. Did the story really deserve to be the headline item on Newsnight, with 6 weeks of investigation and a 17 minute report devoted to it? I kept feeling as though I must be missing some crucial point.

Surely it is important if evidence underlying a report is fabricated, but 6 dubious receipts themselves do not undo the truth of Policy Exchange's report. It is interesting to see the number of Islamists and fellow-travellers who have jumped in repeatedly - in typically organised fashion - earlier in this thread pretending exactly that.

It is highly reminiscent of the West Midlands Police force's recent 'complaint' against Channel 4 for its Dispatches program, exposing the prevalence of violent extremist propaganda in UK mosques. The tactics this time are different, but the strategy is the same. Shoot the messenger - suppress the message. If someone produces a report that is critical of an islamic institution, shriek that they are undermining community cohesion or spreading hate for doing so. Never admit that there is a problem, but turn recognition of the problem into the problem itself.

Newsnight was and I hope still is the bastion of serious, impartial, investigative journalism on British television. With excellent, intelligent and dedicated reporters like Tim Whewell, Mark Urban, Stephanie Flanders, Susan Watts and many others, and Paxman is unparalleled in his courage when taking on professional dissemblers in live debates, but there seems to be something deeply fishy about the Policy Exchange report.

My sympathies were not with Dean Godson. But I felt that Jeremy Paxman's interview with him - in which he talked over Godson and constantly interrupted him was both unfair and counterproductive. It waa unfair because he was time and again not given a chance to make his case; and it was counterproductive because the one-sided encounter prevented shrewder questioning that would have allowed Godson to fall by his own weight.

Well done to the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ for getting to the bottom of some badly conducted research. Any body describing themselves as a leading think-tank deserve to be held to account on the veracity of their claims and condemned for their failures.

But let's not kid ourselves on the basis of one flawed report that there is no problem with extremism in mosques. After all, the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ had no problem with the claim that 20 out of the 100 mosques visited sold extremist literature, and from watching Newsnight's report it looks like in some of the other cases the material was passed on by individuals tangentially connected with the institutions.

So it worries me when Mr Bunglawala from the MCB can pass this all of by saying that "Policy Exchange had already decided what they wanted to say about mosques and just went out to find or should I say invent the evidence to justify their prejudices."

Surely we can condemn both bigotry and extremism in places of worship, and the irresponsible reporting of it?

The little man from Policy Exchange really annoyed me. He wanted everyone to forget that the researchers had fabricated their receipts and to concentrate only on their verbal testimonies. Its like asking the police to focus on the explanation offered by the thieves rather than the stolen goods found in their possessions. Its totally absurd to think that they can defend themselves after being caught red handed trying to deceive the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ with fabricated evidence. Do they think Newsnight watchers are all stupid of something? Well done Newsnight!! I certainly want to see more investigative journalism like this one.

As a Muslim, my primary concern is that a pre-determined conclusion is formulated and when evidence cannot be found to validate the conclusion, its manufactured. This is the latest in a line of dodgy dossiers, sensationalised stories and messy misunderstandings that have adhered to this formula. Muslims are losing confidence in the credibility of any institutionalised establishment and closing the ranks, this piece of journalism was a breath of fresh air...
I hope criminal charges are brought against the researches for falsifying receipts, I don't believe they fully understand the extent of the damage they have caused

THE THIRD SECTOR, NGOs and DEMOCRACY

We now have 'Third Sector' NGOs undertaking what they tell us is independent 'research', which they then stealtily use to market their a priori 'policy recommentations' to government. These are lobbyists and should be treated as the non-democratic opportunists that they are.

There was a time when policies were drafted by career Civil Servants working to an elected government who had a mandate from the elctorate on the basis of their election manifesto.

Does anyone see a problem with these Third Sector (charity) NGOs? If you don't, look into what the 2007 Offender Management Act seeks to replace Probation with and you'll get an idea what New Labour is doing to the Civil Service/Public Sector in furtherance of 'devolution' to the free-market and 'democracy'.

Dear Jeremy,

I can see what Jacqui Smith's plan is, in the event of the police going on strike. She will simply utilise some of the 1,000 or so illegals who her ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ Office allow to work as security guards. Cheaper even than PCSOs!

I work in the offices just opposite the proposed new primary trust drop in - centre which is currently under construction. That was talked about on last nights programme. At first I was pleased to hear that we would have a drop in centre to see a G.P for minor problems. But after watching last nights programme was totally dismayed at the cost prediction of 12 million pounds for the building etc. When I think of the people I know who have been refused the latest treatments for illnesses it makes me wonder just who sat in there office gave the go ahead for this obseen waste of money.

Excellent journalism. ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ at its best. That toad from policy exchange should get the ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ phone in fraud treatment. One should not make slight of the impact such lies has on the lives of ordinary Muslim citizens in this country.

One shudders to think how many mosques and islamic palces have been attacked and how many Muslims have been verbally and physycally abused as a result of this Policy Exchange fraud. Are the charity commission investigating them. I for one will b writing to the CC.

Thank you and keep up the good work.

That guy from the policy exchange was something else, these are the people who are thinking for the country?
Heaven help us!
He even had the nerve to criticise the newsnight leadership, I dread to think what kind of leadership for Newsnight would suit Dean Godson, that O'Reilly guy from Fox News?
Where does this Dean Godson guy get off, I wish he would.
Great work Newsnight.

Food for thought:

Food for thought:

Old Labour (and the British Civil Service) never stood much of a chance? Was it all too Stalinist for the USA?

Now the Muslims are under fire too, as they don't take out high interest loans, don't drink and endeavour to sustain traditional family values, which are prima facie at odds with liberal, free-market, democratic service-sector dominated, economic values?

What would happen if we all behaved that way

Ed - Oddly, this active thread has dropped off the blog side-bar. I'm posting this comment because I think more UK White British people and Newsnigh blog readers in general should give more thought to how law-abiding and family-orientated the average British Muslims is according to the evidence. I fear others are trying to stir up antipathy towards them. A point which Paxman remarked upon in his heated exchange with Joe Godson's son.

"The story it tells us is of yeast in a barrel, feeding and farting until they are poisoned by their own waste. It is too squalid an ending for our anthropocentric conceit to accept."

G. Monbiot (2005)

Ed - The demographic evidence shows that the falling UK population results in INCREASED compensatory immigration from places where the birth rates are higher than replacement level. That serves as an incentive not deterrent.

How can the (probably sub) 1.5 TFR for White British be a good thing for them, the UK, or the planet in the long run? Surely it just means that over time, the UK will become less White British and even more 'stupid' in terms of consumerism?

One can see from projections that the UK's population overall is not falling, it's increasing. If immigration of lower cognitive ability genes into the population gene pool continues at the current rate, the UK can only become a Third World economy/country.

How is that good?

Do you think Third World economies are going to be good for the planet? Pakistan and Nigeria (and there are many like them in Africa/S Asia) have trebled in size since the 50s. How will all those carbon footprints help matters if the UK adds to this proliferation at a similar rate through their falling TFR?

The only thing I see this being good for is financial predators' pockets through increasing the supply of impulsive/low self-control (lower IQ), irresponsible, consumers...

Assuming they can be made secular.

Ed - (#139) No understatement.

There isn't enough criticism of the mainly secular Jewish (could one have a secular Muslim, Catholic etc?) vocal minority by the Jewish community to persuade 'paranoid' critics that the moderates aren't content to benefit from their more aggressive brethren's behaviour. Haaretz is one exception, Finkelstein is another (but look at what's happened to him). In the absence of more evidence to the contrary the moderates are likely to be seen as apologists for these politically active 'shock troops'.

The agenda isn't at all obvious to most people, and it's rendered less salient by political correctness, i.e. charges of 'anti-Semitism', human rights etc. The neocons' target doesn't appear to be limited to Islamic fundamentalists, as Russia, China, Burma, Syria, Iran, N Korea and others have all been in the frame. In the West it appears to be the average religious Muslim (whose code of behaviour, driven by the Qu'ran, is anathema to the secular financial/hegemonic interests of those disproportionately managing/benefiting from the developed world's economy) but another casualty is the traditional Old Labour socialist left. I suspect that has always been the main target (here and internationally). What is promoted is USA backed democratic socialism (aka Trotskyism).

Muslims are breeding above replacement level, whilst MOST of the secular world is not. The former is growing in number whilst the latter is shrinking. This predicts a fall in revenue/hegemony for those running/managing the developed economies and whilst demographic warfare is openly discussed in Israel, it's the economic predation which elicits all the hostility/paranoia in the West.

It may well be that Israel is desperately fighting for its existence in a hostile environment, but after 1948 the world looked to Israeli Jews to show that past charges of their having been predatory upon their neighbours in Europe was unjustified, yet with respect to Palestinians in the Middle East and the business philosophy of the likes of profiteers like Alan Sugar in the West, in many people's eyes, those classic charges have just been reinforced. The PNAC's agenda isn't a benevolent expansion of liberal-democracy and freedom throughout the world, it's de-regulation to secure better markets/profits at the expense of the vulnerable (a good example being Black Americans being 'free' to sign up for sub-prime mortgages at initially too good to be true rates but sold as true - this is why immigration is encouraged, easier sales).

This has become more and more the case since 1989.

Ed, I appreciate that you feel very strongly about ecology. I don't. I see it as just another liberal, middle class religion/crusade like many others, and its one which has been highjacked by naive democratic socialist (Trotskyite) politicians (which included Thatcher's lot as they wanted nuclear to replace fossil in order break the 'Stalinist' unions). Remember ted Grant's (look up real name, as with Tony Cliff) Militant? They made the country hate Old Labour and the unions....

Look at the hard behavioural data which I have been presenting. We now have 'small government' by design (lots of cosmetic legislation, but little effective enforcement, the regulators never have enough staff or powers). Most people won't have been following the raft of ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ Office etc legislation from New Labour, it looks to me like it is designed to make the country less governable and more accessible to the Third Sector etc). Whatever policies small government comes up with are unenforceable for that reason (not to mention that Frattini wants a further 20 million from Africa & S Asia to compensate for low EU birth rates). I have said before that this is not a matter of argument. It's numbers and trends plus government spin to make it appear that they are doing something. I've just been summarising the demographic and assessment data trends.

Policies are just words (something New Labour is full of).

If you re-regulate, you 'lose' control to the free-market/banks. If you insist on exporting de-regulation to the rest of the world, you won't get world consensus/government (at Bali or anywhere else), just free-market anarchism which is good for business in the short term. That's all business cares about, ask anyone in the financial sector. There may be those who think that de-regulation is a step towards THEIR establishing world government, but that's quite a gamble and if there is any possibility of it, then all the talk about the inevitability of the de-regulated free market is nonsense (they probably don't mean 'government' anyway, they probably just mean global opportunity to make money through the ABSENCE of central government - very Trotskyite).

Conclusion, to achieve what you want requires the very opposite of anarchism, it requires a global Commanding Heights like the USSR (or China NOTE) constructed, i.e. precisely what the USA has been nobbling everywhere it's seen a hint of over the past half century or so. China will be its nemesis I suspect.

The bottom line is that we now have global dysgenic fertility (except in China) which increases impulsivity. As I said to Barrie a while back, basically, current trends indicate that except for China, which has eugenics legislation (1995, see previous posts to these blogs for references and analyses), we're stuffed, and I fear your position (and Edith's, and anyone else who finds your crusade appealing) is just likely to be reinforcing the problem through arguing that it ain't so).

So less of the fortune cookie philosophy please ;-)

Ed (#151) We appear to agree here. Elsewhere, I've given a (perhaps too technical/cryptic but evidence based, CYP21/NCAH) genetic conjecture as to why these behaviours *may* be SO much more prevalent in this endogamous group.

Is it just a coincidence that Israel is sited amidst one of the most traditionally sexually dimorphic groups on the planet (at least by law)? Elsewhere, it's Africans who have the lowest prevalece of the polymorphism.

It's just an evidence based conjecture though.

Ed, the problem with the public is that (as with schoolchildren and poets) their psychology tends to be seductively intensional (i.e. tautologous/vacuous).