Â鶹ԼÅÄ

It is interesting, but like both New York City & Washington, D.C., which have the toughest gun laws in the country, only the law abiding don't have access to guns.

Any criminal, in any country, can get a gun anytime he/she wants.

In fact in many cases the criminal element have access to better weapons that the police forces do.

There is always a criminal element, in any country, who will sell guns, of any type, to anyone who has the money to pay for them.

The only answer, and a very difficult one, is to go after the source of weapons. But like drugs, as long as there is a market for guns, there will be someone there to fill the need, isn't the free market great.

With the world awash in weapons of every type, trying to stop anyone who really wants to get one will be exteremly difficult to say the least.

My former boss a few years ago lost his son (of around 20 years age) in South London in a shooting. He was an innocent bystander, it was a case of wrong identity. The police are certain who did it but couldn't prove it, so the guy never got convicted.

The level of gun crime is appalling. Overall I'm very impressed with the work of the police, but I have a feeling there is a lot more that can be done, toughen the laws and sentences and combat the deeper roots of this problem (the latter being a wider issue involving not only the police). Other world cities have coped with it, London (and the UK as a whole) seem to be struggling still.

Large numbers of weapons come from smuggling from the US and former British soldiers selling campaign 'souvenirs'. In my opinion there is no effective way to eliminate these sources completely. The answer may lie in shock education. Don't pussy foot around explaining how wrong or bad it is to have or use a weapon. It's too exciting and powerful a rush to be overcome by that tool. Show the kids graphic footage of what really happens when someone is shot, not the Hollywood sanitized version.

Lawfully owned guns are rarely used in crimes. This is especially true of often very expensive target rifles as well as shotguns used in competiitons. Colin Greenwood's studies years back showed that gun crime rates actually increased following stricter laws. Yes, I own guns, carefully secured and used on proper ranges. It is now ironically far easier for a criminal to obtain an illegal firearm than for a law-abiding citizen to purchase one for lawful uses!
Oh, yes, Colin Greenwood was the Chief Inspector of the Yorkshire Constabulary at the time he took an academic leave of absence to complete his researches.

Just wanted to let you know that I live close to the location of the latest shooting here in Clapham. As your viewers may not be aware, our community has many active and effective local organisations (both public and private sector) which create a strong sense of community cohesion. One such is for example our local Safer Neighbourhood police team (Larkhall Ward, Lambeth) which has even met in the public hall close to the shooting. So gun crime here and elsewhere is of course a serious problem - but its impact seems limited to a very small number in our and other communities, who for some reason are simply not part of the local community, where others are leading normal and rewarding lives.
Regards

Perhaps you shuld be asking about criminals who own handguns illegally?
Perhaps the handgun ban is an evil joke after all.

Living in the countryside I know plenty of people who own guns but we should be careful to differentiate here between legally held guns and illegally held ones!

In order to legally own guns, stringent character checks are carried out as well as checks to ensure they are kept securely. It is the illegal ownership of guns that is a problem and we must be careful to ensure that legal ownership is not curtailed in knee jerk reactions to the horrors taking place in city areas.

Yes, I own a gun.

I send £40 to the Police every four years along with eight photographs of myself and a form with all my details on it. Then a Policeman (well up to now it's been a man) comes to inspect my gun and make sure it's bolted to the wall in my house.

People who use a gun to kill people don't send all their details and their photograph to the Police along with £40 every four years.

create conflicts in people,hide the full facts,it is a policeing coverup,the underlining nature are that NO complaints proceedures are in progress there is NO resolve to claims that police,did not act,when informed,no actions taken against perpatraitors,whatever reasons,because the police are not interested if a complaint is made the police cover it up with office regulatory explanations,to dispence with it,local resolutions,police must be made accountable for there actions with the full backing of every decent copper there is,for the good of every decent officer in the force,a commitee should be convened to overlook the police actions and the actions of every office in government,it would be bigger than the home office stop corruption in its tracks,everyone should be governed be the law,in order to move forward,towards transparency,and get rid of ray mallon of middlesbrough,he is should not be a marter,for theyouth of today corruption in the police force,and he gets away with it ,because he resighned,his job,as a release from prosecution.

I have never been involved in any sort of gun crime.
However, years ago when the ordinary respectable person was allowed to own a gun, I ran a gun club. There was never a problem. Of course we did have Hungerford, a nationwide news item. But things like this were rare.
Then the government in their 'wisdom'? decided to ban legal gun ownership. Since then gun crime has gone through the roof.
I would really like to know what the government archived with their ban.
Conspiracy theory would say they did it to disarm the general public in case of insurrection.

I don’t have personal experience with gun’s/gun crime, or an awareness of it. However, you should be seeking to identify what individuals or groups are importing these guns. Individuals, who import guns, provide these to the lower level criminals for drugs and/or money. This inevitably ends up in the hands of petty criminals and innocent children. I do know someone who has been shot and have been informed that a particular person has guns in their home. Whether this is replica guns, pistols this remains to be seen. You should also be concentrating on guns that can be converted.

I do know some people who have guns. However, the one person I know only uses them for hunting purposes and he keeps them locked up in a gun cabinet with a lock on it. I really haven't touched a rifle since my mum's step-father had one in his possesion, and that was around 1975 or so. I really think that, if people had better training in firearms and they realise that it is NOT a toy, I feel that gun cirme wouldn't be so prevelant. It could be that the youngsters think that the gun either: 1-isn't loaded when they pick it up, or 2-that it looks like a toy water pistol that they have in their possesion and that is leading to the ammount of firearms discharges that are happening in the UK and in the USA. If we had better and more training and education in firearm safety, I feel that the problem wouldn't be so prevelant as it is today.

In our area, (Old Trafford/Hulme/Whalley Range/Moss Side)selling guns is a way to earn money when local businesses don't give local people a fair chance of getting legitimate employment because they don't conform to their demands of expected behaviour in the working environment and even, in a lot of instances, in their home environment. Most communities suffer from intimidation of one form or another, which in turn, causes people to react conditionally depending on their local experiences.
If local businesses offered something to their local community then there would be a lot more respect for themselves and more unity between dis-engaged people.

I worked all my life as an Anglican cleric mostly in deprived areas of cities. Although I often came across knives (and still do in my inner-city work among homeless young people), I never see, and never saw, guns. However, fifteen years ago I worked for a few years as parish priest in a rural community in Nottinghamshire. In an expensive 4-wheel drive, parked on the public road in the Conservation Area, outside an expensive home, situated next to the church, at 07.30 one Sunday morning, on my way to Holy Communion, I spotted, in the vehicle's front seat four guns - a shotgun, and three handguns, plus ammunition (bullets, not cartridges). The vehicle's windows were wound down. I reported this to the police, who immediately came and apprehended the householder. My point? No point. I simply report my experience since you have asked.
Rev'd Roy catchpole.

I'm a white, middle class, south londoner however I know someone who knows someone ect...

From my point of view his hasn't changed or increased.

What has increased is the type of people who are prepared to use them.

And that is related to young people feeling they have everything to gain by being a 'gangsta innit' and - more worryingly - nothing to lose.

US style gang inspired gun use has arrived, and we only have ourselves to be blame for letting social deprevation of urban youngsters creep up on us.

Is there a connection between yesterday's headlines about our children and today's about gun crime?
Is there a reason why this Government once proclaimed multi culturalism and now decries it?
The connection and the reason is one in the same in my opinion; a shallow and self interested Government who are trying to govern not by policy or belief but by propaganda aiming only to preserve their power.
History shows that this leads a break down in society. Margaret Thatcher was misquoted as saying that she did not believe in society. Mr Blair and his colleagues really don't.

Is there a connection between yesterday's headlines about our children and today's about gun crime?
Is there a reason why this Government once proclaimed multi culturalism and now decries it?
The connection and the reason is one in the same in my opinion; a shallow and self interested Government who are trying to govern not by policy or belief but by propaganda aiming only to preserve their power.
History shows that this leads a break down in society. Margaret Thatcher was misquoted as saying that she did not believe in society. Mr Blair and his colleagues really don't.

One of the reasons most of us do not go around and shoot other people, is that the society we belong to has thaught us that this is unacceptable behaviour.

If people do not feel they belong to society, they do not take into proper consideration what is acceptable or not.

Clearly, not all people who feel they do not belong end up shooting people, but just as with illegal drug use or any other form of crime, the feeling of being abandoned by the rest of society is a major contributing factor.

The problem here is that the individual beleives that he/she cannot do anything to improve his/her own lot in life.

Young people are caught up in the middle of the conflict between a government policy that make them beleive that they have to depend on the state to sort out their lives and the rest of us who have become increasingly selfish and totally focused on material wealth.

If you are made to feel totally worthless because you or your parents have not amassed the material wealth we all seem to be craving for, then people with low frustration tolerance will resort to whatever means they have to their disposal to cure the feeling of being worthless as a human being.

As a middle aged, hardend capitalist, I beleive it is in our self interest to create a more incusive society.

Give young people confidence in themselves. Be a supportive citizen.

P.S. About two years ago I was mugged and badly beaten by a group of five teenagers on my way home from work one evening. At first I was very angry, but when I learned a bit about their background, I realised that if they really believed that life without an Ipod is not worth living, then mugging me to get one seemed like a logical solution to someone who had nothing to lose.

Perhaps it's about time that we look again at laws surrounding hand-guns.

Since the ban in 1997 gun crime has rocketed:

Before the ban the Police were able to keep extremely accurate records relating to the import/export, buying and selling of handguns in the UK. But since it's now completely illegal to own a handgun, this information is no longer available as those people who had guns before and want them now are hardly likely to let the Police know.

As the saying goes, "If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns" ...how very true those words appear to be.

Banning is never a solution to anything, it only makes things worse: Drugs, alcohol, weapons, it's all the same. What is needed here is regulation pure and simple.

The handgun ban hasn't worked as these recent shootings have proved yet again. Isn't it now time for a proper open and unbiased discussion about gun laws in this country?

Lets give the Police a fighting chance to follow the paper trail to real gun criminals without criminalising responsible gun-owners.

Some years ago our next door neighbour advertised some guns for sale in the evening standard. These guns were family heirlooms. The result was that the would be buyers called at the flat and held the vendors up with their own guns and tied them up and made off with the guns.

As I live in EGYPT which is a part of the African continent,i`d like to highlight a very serious issue dominating the African countries mainly the Subsaharan countries is weopons trafficking. As I expect this issue may be unclear for many people living outside the continent but they should know that many many people and children are being killed every day as aresult of this illegal trade. The most important is that illegal smuggling of weopons usually results in civil wars which by its role results in millions of innocent victims. From this point I ask all global humantarian associations and the security council to tackle this critical issue.

I have owned guns all of my adult life. When legally held handguns were banned ten years ago it was obvious that the government were attacking the line of least resistance in order to show they were tackling gun crime. The vast resources wasted on implementing that ban, should have been aimed at criminals and their illegally held guns. It seems the general public don't understand the difference.

Not judging here, but if my memory serves me correctly...

First the gun ban went into effect, then there were reports of folks carrying and using swords. So a sword ban (of sorts) went into effect, then folks started carrying knifes. So a knife ban (of sorts) went into effect. What will be next, a special permit to have golf clubs or cricket bats?
Previous entries are correct. The bad guys do not follow the laws and will always have access to the weapons of their choice.

I have never been touched by gun crime yet I have owned several guns legally for years. The gun problem is not about law abiding citizens who own guns, it's about criminals who have guns illegally, out of police control. Banning guns has disarmed law abiding citizens and given criminals the monopoly of illegal fire arms, plus a guarantee they can commit crime unopposed.

I do know someone who keeps a gun. Not a conventional weapon, but one that has been adapted by being shortened. Originally for poaching purposes. It was acquired through a business transaction, the weapon being accepted in partial payment to settle a debt. It is kept at a domestic residence, a bungalow, which is several miles from the nearest neighbour in the Hertfordshire countryside. I had not known it be used by that owner, but in the present climate of escalting crime and the extreme rural location, I would consider it an asset and a necessity these days.

i dont have any idea about gun crime but i do know that in my own place, yongsters normally have their guns from politician aspairing for a position.

From the above posts, its quite clear that the old American slogan - "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns", is very valid.
All efforts by busybody do gooders to ban the legal, private ownership of firearms are just so much snivelling hot air.
Everywhere you go, government efforts to control gun crime by disarming law abiding citizens have ended in failure. The end result is almost universally an increase in illegal gun ownership and gun running.

People keep saying that the level of gun crime is appalling, and express fear for our sons, yet it hardly makes a dent in the figures on sexual crimes that our daughters and often die too.

We have to teach our son's that macho us out of date. Violence, sexual and otherwise, is NOT very smart.

And how do we do it that? Well, we campaign against the porn industry and the rap-raping misogyny of the music industry and the massive, 'I must have' consumer industry, and these play station games that kill. We teach are son's to care and show them that the big muscular bling, bling macho man a very bad joke by depicting this type of man as a foolish idiot.

If you watched 'Crimewatch' last time, you will have noticed a policemen who chased some bank robbers, who was then shot at. He then said, "I thought this was end game" See how his concept of even his own life was that of a game! Men are becoming very disjointed, disconnected humans which is dangerous for us all. They now seem to spend their youth playing with killer games or winking over porn which leaves them in constant need of instant gratification and kicks with no ability to engage in real human compassion.

I the light of present gun crime levels can some in the government remind me what is the reason for continuing to ban public owner ship of hand guns including the single shot sporting pistol?

I seems to me that this law removes the sporting pleasure from a lot of peoples lives for no gain in public order.

I think the law must be revisited as it is punishing people who are not responsible for present criminal use of guns.

I can only give you an observation but not a solution. I am a former United States Air Force police Staff SGT with 10 yrs law enforcement experience. I have been trained how to use firearms,to use them safely,to store them,the nomenclature behind them and the like. I agree with one of the commentators that you should show both adults and teens what is the aftermath of the utilization of using firearms in both lethal(deadly force) and less than deadly force situations. Ironically many that have been firearms trained sometimes have fatalities. So many policeman in the US both military and civilians keep all sorts of guns and rifles like myself in their residences and vehicles like myself. And if they are not locked up or secure then your asking for trouble. Since the birth of my child I have put all my firearms outside of my house tightly locked up and secured. I would also recommend this to anybody else who has a toddler. And in the U.S. where I live I can keep my firearms in my trunk or in my glove box which I keep secure. And I do alot of praying that I never have to use them in self-defense. But if I do I want it to be as a lawful citizen.

To whom it may concern:
You seem to believe that
gun owners in general are the
"bad guys". They are not!
Most gun owners are responsible citizens. They
should not be made to pay for the misdeeds of a small percentage of irresponsible
individuals.

I was born in Camberwell, we knew people with guns, but youngsters did not get hurt by guns.
Perhaps the Police should put the same effort as they do searching for small amounts of drugs, and search houses for guns.

the only time a gun touched my life was when my laptop was stolen by arm robbers, i couldnt believe it.

Whats the matter with the American system

Guns and Thesies...

Some people think the best way to deal with guns is to become a guns trader...

The Movie Liberty Stands Still challenges and complicates the right to own them...

From Northern Ireland there was rumour of Political Defence Weapons PDWs being designed and manufactured in a Joint Weapons Agreement between disputing parties chaired by international committee including Liam Neilson the actor and others...to celebrate the histories of the sectarians' struggles...and export boxed classics around the planet

But now those struggles have reportedly turned to thesies and the medical weapons of imposed psychiatrics..

Whilst out in LA we happened to be sat at a corner restaurant on the night of the Grammy's the topic of drive by shootings came up..

...a classic range rover cruised by and shot a lone pedestrian on the opposite corner...

... he was rumoured to be a psychiatrist who had been analysing people at a party...

...it was only a leg wound ...but for a long while he would be known as the man who didn't have a leg to stand on...

Benedict TLC

Causes for the current spate of teen-on-teen killings? From this despairing urban London liberal (yes, liberal!), how about the following.... Glorification of any explosive emotionalism, and of any kind of instant gratification (sexual, material, monetary) through manipulative music & advertising, rampant individualism, shallow posturing models of masculinity (on the soccer pitch, the dancefloor, behind the driving wheel, in the BB House, the boardroom), a cartoon-like disassociation of violence from its true consequences, car-crash family structures cursed by absentee fathers, a "feminised" school environment increasingly irrelevant to boys, topped off by various career-building interests in the multiculture industry, who continue to fight the already won battles of 20 years ago. And I'm sure I've missed a few...

Where are the positives ? We could do worse than start with the thoughts of the excellent Dr Tony Sewell, who spoke much sense on your programme about two nights ago about child-rearing. Plus Lucy Cope from Peckham Mothers against Guns, and the numberless unsung heroine Mums & hero Dads who continue, against the odds, to inculcate values of consideration & self-restraint into children in this very, very sick society.

Blue on blue ( or black on black )
if the afro-caribbeans want to kill themselves and their young ones who are we to stop them.
This applies to any community in this country - Muslims, Christians Jews and tom cobleigh and all.

A lot of this type of crime, ie "black on black" or "respect" murders etc (mostly drug related) is an indirect result of political correctness gone mad.
The fear of arresting, and therefore alienating the black community, and being accused of racism, means that the police have their hands tied when trying to clean up our "mean streets".
15 year old muggers know their rights but will never learn any responsibilities, loyalty or respect for anyone but other criminals.
Ironically, when one black teenager kills another, the parents who are often from countries where they were taught the difference between right and wrong are the ones who have to suffer the loss; they can't believe that the killer of their child often cannot be punished adequately, if at all.
Is it any wonder that the "indigenous" community are thinking, if not voicing the view that "well, as long as they're doing it to their own and leave me out off the equation, I couldn't give a damn anymore".
Needless to say, I'm already making plans to leave this country once and for all to try and live a decent life somewhere else before I'm either a victim or the thought police round me up.

It is a sad day indeed that guns have become so freely available in the UK. No longer can I boast that gun crime in the UK is unheard of -- having lived in Washington DC for many years, this was a boast I often made. However, now we have lawlessness and gun crimes on our doorstep. Where on earth do these kids find the money to buy drugs and guns!
Something needs to be done and parents need to be accountable or suffer the consequences. Adults commiting such crimes should be locked away until death. Life, means Life!

This is just the inevitable result of there being no real consequences for bad/anti social behaviour.
When young people grow up seeng no behavioral boundary's, why should any of us be surprised with the current crop of violence.
In my view things cannot improve until small incidents of antisocial behavior picked up and not ignored as it is at present

This is just the inevitable result of there being no real consequences for bad/anti social behaviour.
When young people grow up seeng no behavioral boundary's, why should any of us be surprised with the current crop of violence.
In my view things cannot improve until small incidents of antisocial behavior are treated seriously, picked up and actions result, not ignored as thay are at present

I agree strongly with comment 16, that we need to make the link between the UN report on child deprivation and emotional hunger in the UK, and the recent spate of teenage murders, some of whom came originally from refugee-generating countries in prolonged conflict.....(I live in the crime area....and like it....)
Could we note the similarities between these children from far away Africa and those in the UK, who have missed out so traumatically on primary bonding of consistency and care, or have had such vital ties interrupted or lost, thus ending up lacking any positive communication skills and socialisation? Failed states such as Somalia, and previously Angola, Liberia, Sierra Leone (not any more,we can now thankfully pray!) and failed inner city ghettos of our own making, produce much the same barbarisation of some of our young people......AND THIS IS beyond race or faith..... And then we continue disabling these permanently scarred souls further by a brutally overburdened prison system unable to offer any therapeutic and emotionally socialising values and programmes.......No wonder the UK ranks bottom of the list for child happiness. Mr. 19/Lars Patterson, this is not about 'teaching acceptable behaviour', this is about being faithful to those who societies have betrayed. After the damage to them has been done,and shows in crime, the cost of such faithfulness, both in terms of the 'frontline' carers' feelings and safety, and taxpayers money, gets higher every time 'the system' fails them again.....

Reading the foregoing posts adds a lot of commonsense to the debate..
I used to hold a licence as secretary for a small bore gun club(.22) it was registered as a bone fide Club of a corporate organisation. Personally i had a 12 bore shotgun many years for clays..also a fullbore .32 auto for target practice. These guns were kept under very strict conditions & i was fully vetted by the police.Immediately(prior to Dunblane)i ceased to shoot/was secretary the full bore & small certificates/gun were handed back to police/authorities.The 12 bore was officially altered as to be non capable of shooting & has sat on the wall for some years.
I guess what most of our are saying is that guns held officially are not normally a danger to the public.. police rules have been & still are very stringent.
The only loophole(if thats what it is) is the shotguns/rifles owned by the farming community for use against vermin....BUT mainly the(real.. all grades)of villians & suchlike that know where to buy for illegal reasons & usage.
I think that the present illegal gun ownership & use in crime has been exascerbated by stifling police searches (S&S)because it offended the black population who are in the main responsible for the present gun crime , at least thats as reported!
So bring back Stop & Search for guns,knives & drugs on all ,if the main recipients are the ethnic minorities & it offends... so be it!The liberal softies must take a back seat, we have followed their cautious rants for too long.

Alban Thurston your post 38 you wrote, "Dr Tony Sewell, who spoke much sense on your programme about two nights ago about child-rearing. "

Dr. Sewell's views are deeply misogynist which he did not reveal on the Newsnight programme. His kind of views will in the end only perpetuate the male's sense of inadequacy and not in the least help him to face the fact that he has to have a renaissance whereby the macho male and/or the patriarchal male, however benign this kind of male is, has to be buried once and for always. A new more mature male, more flexible, more balanced male, needs to emerge from this crisis of masculinity.

To Anthony Flannagan; people in those areas you mentioned, choose to partake in illegal activities, because it offers the easy and fast way of making a lot of money.
I grew up in Whalley Range and when I couldn't get a job in Manchester (local or not) I didn't turn to a life of crime to fund my existence. I took an honest job where I was offered one - Greenwich SE London, at aged 18.
It's pathetic excuses like this, which make the criminals think that they are justified in electing to live outside of the law.

It appears to me that the government can spend £29.5m to spy on smokers and fail to spend enough to stop gun crime. Smokers choice if they want to kill themselves by smoking but surely not the victims of gun crime.

Guns destroy the whole society.No need for a gun when a goverment works for peace and security.Peace and security more important than too much food.

Sirs
At the time of Dunblane I was the Secretary of a rifle and pistol club and advised members of the House of Lords on the impact of the new laws.
Personal experiences: I knew two men who had been guilty of gun crimes. One was the son of a police officer who acquired a .45 Colt automatic. He had been refused permission by his father to use guns, so he got one illegally. He’s dead now – but so far as I know he never hurt anyone with a firearm. He simply wanted to know how they worked.
The second is still alive. When a youth, he too wanted to play with guns. So he broke into a Surrey barracks and stole some rifles and ammunition. Being not very bright, as he admitted, he was soon caught. The magistrate made him an offer: he could either go to Borstal for two years, or join the local gun club and learn to use guns safely under supervision. He is now the Hon President of that club, having had a useful, worthwhile life.
Criminalising our youths is the scourge of modern life. Those who want to use drugs without hurting anyone else are forced into the arms of the most dangerous criminal gangs. There they often get hold of guns – with no safety training.
Many men – and women – enjoy the challenge of hitting targets. That does not make them criminals. And the facile political argument that removing legally owned firearms makes everyone safe has proved to be a nonsense. Dunblane happened because a man who was not eligible for a firearms certificate somehow managed to acquire one – even though he had been known to have purchased illegal guns already. Instead of being arrested, as would any other shooter, somehow he was allowed to retrospectively amend his licence to add these guns. Then, when local clubs refused to let him join them, because he was viewed askance, the police still allowed him to get guns and keep his licence. Others would have had all their guns confiscated if they were not full members of a club.
Our streets are awash with guns. We have criminals bringing in tons of drugs – it is easy enough for them to supply firearms as well. The gun laws only affect lawful Commonwealth, Olympic and other national shooters. Law-abiding people who had put themselves forward, submitting themselves to rigorous checks every three years. And as a result our most successful sporting teams will not be permitted to participate in the Olympic games, taking part in the shooting sports that we, the British, invented.
We urgently need a review of the gun laws. After all it was Lord Cullen himself who said: “Thus I do not consider that the banning of handguns for target shooting or the banning of shooting clubs would be justified.� (para 9.113 of Chapter 9, page 131 of The Public Inquiry into the Shootings at Dunblane Primary School on 13 March 1996).

How can there be any gun crime? I thought guns were made illegal. All the innocent gun owners quietly handed them in! Can it be that murderers are not too bothered about the gun laws? Perhaps we should consider catching and punishing the criminals.
So you want to stop young lads from imagining that guns are 'cool'? Then make them compulsory! As in Switzerland, where people tend not to shoot each other. When his sister also has a gun and he has to practice shooting every Saturday, the lad will think it very 'cool' not to have one.
Meanwhile: keep your head down.

Noteworthy that all of the speakers discussing reasons and remedies for gun crime dutifull avoid mention of the example given to alienated youth by the violent people who inhabit our most senior public offices

We can only make a significant difference in our society if we invest in our youth. Such investment takes many forms; it certainly starts in the family: parents need to invest time and energy into bringing up their children. The government too has a huge responsibility: allowing class size of 30+ at school is diabolical: individual needs are seldom met. Building a new super-casino? Now, there's the rub! How many youth clubs, activities for children and teen-agers, family support schemes, further education courses, apprentships, sports facilities (the list is endless) could have been set up with THAT MUCH money? It's DISGUSTING.

I was born and raised in an innercity estate,i still live on one now with my three children and partner.the problem is poverty,lack of funding for youth clubs etc and most of all parents not educating their children, raising their awareness to make good choices in their life.These guns our hitting our streets and affecting the lives of our children not just by deaths but also doing lengthy jail sentences for carrying them and using them.these children have been failed by the system and most of all in the home.the only way to tackle this problem and turn it around for the future is to educate our children from as early as possible ,love them ,give them a hope for better things ,let them know that what they are surrounded by isnt the only way forward in life.

My views are that- most young black children have grown up in a community that appears not to care for them. When News night or any Media news agent reports the crime,they will say that this has happened in the black community. We are then presented by someone from that community commenting on the crime . Most of these children are born in this country and their role modells has come from this country- and America - and means little and nothing. So they develop their own culture, because the host cultre do not appear to care. When a black child is killed then the whole country should be up in arms- as these are thier children. Not just the balck community. Everyone should feel responsible. Not turning their backs on these children. What do I mean.? These Children belongs to the whole commuinity/ If the gunboys knew that everyone was keeping an eye and willing to report they would be more causious. As it is now they have free range to kill who they want because they are out of control as its not the mojority culture taking responsibility.The minority has not got eyes everywhere. They need help to care for their children.
this needs the Goverment, all people in the community and parents both black and white to get together and show the gunmen that there is a force to recokon with. Otherwise the gunmen/boys will grow and become more and more powerful and this will change the status Quo. Three today how many tomorrow.

Gavin Esler began the piece on the murders in Lambeth and Southwark by saying that the gun-crime figures had come down. That is true, but it's a truth that needs to be put into historical perspective.

It's possible to argue that by manufacturers thief-proofing their cars, our turning our homes into fortress, nailing down everything that can be pinched, and keeping carefully out of harm's way, we are back to the crime numbers as they were at the beginning of the 1980s--by which time there had been a massive increase in crime over the period of the previous twenty years.

I suppose that this is what the representative of the Police Authority had in mind when she said that crime had come down since the 1980s.

That might or might not be true of the over-all figures of crime, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the gun-crime figures.

The relevant figures for Lambeth are as follows:

There were 339 weapons offences reported to the police in 2000. This figure continued the pattern of relentless rise throughout the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and the first half of the 2000s.

By 2005 the figure was 666. This was a further massive increase of 57 per cent on the year 2000.

The Lambeth figure fell from 666 in 2005 to 533 in 2006. That is a fall of 17 per cent. Very good. Congratulations to the police.

The already rocketing crime numbers had risen from 2000 to 2005 by another 57 per cent, and the police are able to pull it back by 17 per cent in 2006.

But what this shows is that social forces continued to pull civic society to pieces more quickly than the police could prevent them from doing so.

One step up the slippery slope by the police and two steps back down it (at least) by party policies and the national culture.

English society, warts and all, was the admiration of the world fifty or sixty years ago.

But I imagine that few were surprised to learn this week that, on the whole range of UNICEF criteria of what consitutes a desirable society, rich England is now wallowing behind every other economically rich country, from Sweden at one end of the globe to New Zealand at the other.

It's what's called, I think, the chickens coming home to roost.

The current furore over gun crime in south london, and the police intent to service those areas with armed police, does not attempt to solve the problem.
The police have to react, which i understand.
The government and the judicial system are mainly to blame.
Poor education, is a poor excuse, there are countless teenagers who do not use or carry weapons.
The only problem for those that don't carry weapons is they are seen as soft targets, they do not wish to be targeted in this way and join gangs.
Until the Government decides that its policies on gun crime need to be tougher this problem will remain.
Custodial sentences need to be longer, for mere illegal posession, let alone use of a gun or knife.
South london, needs police to be seen. not heard but not seen. sirens don't prevent crimes.

South Londoner.

It seems to me it would be good information to say what sort of people own guns of any kind

WHO ARE THEY ?

Viewed from the economic standpoint, fatal gun crimes like this are not such a bad thing. After all, they nip the British taxpayer's ever-expanding burden in the proverbial bud.

The cost of sending these recreants to prison; giving them 'Special Needs' teaching and 'Emotional Literacy' classes; paying them lifelong Welfare benefits; then clothing, 'educating', feeding and ultimately containing their maladjusted, unemployable, fatherless offspring would put the NASA research budget to shame.

It is far cheaper to let their murderous subculture run its natural course. Give the taxpayer a break for once: or spend these presently wasted funds on the truly deserving - pensioners, gifted working class children and the conventionally aspirant.

If there were no guns then there would be no gun crime -its as simple as that. The government needs to make a consious effort to insure that guns are being prevented from being smuggled in from eastren europe.

An interesting piece of news just came in (Jamaica West Indies) that guns are being exchanged with Haiti in lieu of animal carcasses which the Haitians use for food. There has been an unusual increase in praedial larceny over the past few months and most persons wondered why and where were the carcasses being taken to; now we know.
I used to know people with illegal guns right in my community; they are all dead now from the same gun violence they used to take part in.
There is nothing that can be done about illegal weapons, especially in poor undeveloped countries where poor people use guns to 'get back' at their government for not providing for them. The horse has already gone thru the gate.
Why not pray for this system of things, critical times, hard to deal with to end. We ARE living in the last days.

i am 14 years old, i believe that www.channelu.tv is the cause of gun crime. two boys tell the story of how they carry gun's but are unable to come out of it. The song is called hard life.This is a true story. I hope that this will help with your enquries.

I reported 40 plus firearms missing to my local police, they had been taken by my recently deceased partners family, they had persuaded me to let them take them for safe keeping as it was against the law to leave them in an unoccupied property. The guns were left to me but as I do not own a gun license I thought it best for them to be kept somewhere safe for the time being. At a later date I asked for them to be returned and I was informed that they had sold the lot (without my permission) They refuse to say who to and no one can make them tell, apparently! The police have investigated and they said there is nothing they can do, it's a civil matter! I told them that there were hand guns, pistols, revolvers, rifles, shotguns plus a pump action shotgun (I didn't know it was illegal) and enough ammunition to blow a house sky high! My late partner owned a gun license and had collected weapons and militaria all his life, wether they were replicas, imitation, illegal or legal I have no idea as they disappeared so quickly and now I don't know where they have ended up, I am extremely anxious to the whereabouts of so many dangerous weapons, this is why I went to the police in the first place. My pleas for the police to have all these firearms accounted for or at least make sure they were safe have basically been ignored. Since when does the disappearance of this amount of firearms become a civil matter? Unbelievable! I cannot locate the guns without the help of the police. So much for the strict gun laws, this lot of firearms have got away into goodness knows who's hands. I'm absolutely stunned that the police do not have the power to go and ask where the guns are now? Until I know that the guns have not ended up on the streets I will not let what I consider a serious matter rest.

Every day gun crimes are getting high and it is very scary. my son is only 4 and he likes to thinks guns are very to play with and they are not. One day younger children want to have a gun and it is frightening. I think that the goverment should get up their ass and doing something about now, before it gets out of control.

i think that guns are evil and shooting peeps is 2 far.its holiwoods fault for glorising guns and stuff.if u look at gangster films they are kl and peeps want 2 act like that.but u cant deny im right cause i am god

Reading these posts sounds just like Farenheit 451 but about guns instead of books.

Your government took your guns to gain power over the people not to prevent violence. Gun control is "people control" or "sheeple control".

Murdering a person requires a special perversion of ones view of the sanctity of life. Murdering a person does not require and is not caused by an item. So increases in violence are directly related to diregarding the words of Jesus Christ that your nation in the past relied on more thoroughly. Jesus Christ taught better than anyone the sanctity of life. To murder to get gain as Cain learned, that great and terrible secret, has not been a secret for thousands of years and has nothing to do with guns. Many men have been murdered by the bare hands of another who was stronger or meaner or more practiced at killing. That of course is one of the great benefits of a gun is to allow even the weakest a viable chance to withstand the aggression of the murderer.

The Crime rate in the US is at an all time low and has been decreasing since 1975. While gun ownership is at it's highest level ever. If you do not believe this you can easily verify it by going to the FBI uniform crime report online, if that is not informative enough for you I do not know that anything would be. The highest crime rates in the US are in cities that have the strictest "gun control". 48 US states have specific right to carry concealed weapons permits and nearly all of those are shall issue meaning that, barring your being a felon, you must be given a permit within a very short period of time. Without a permit you can of course use and carry guns as you like just not legally hidden on your person.

I agree with those posts that are for arming the people and you people had better get your government in check if it isn't too late.

Unfortunatly in the US we have some ,too many, who put their hope and faith and trust in the incremental strangulation policy of gun control. Which is really just people control. To gain power for the few over the many.

Gun crime is increasing a lot, especially in areas as mentioned, i feel the best way to tackle this is to increase the amount of patrol officers. This would be greatly used when officers are sent out late at night to keep our environment safe.

The fundamental problem with the UK is the total ban on handguns after the tragic Dunblane incident. As an ex-pat who now lives in Texas, and has a Concealed Handgun License, the laws in the US work. Crime rates are at an all time low and continuing the drop. If someone breaks into your house, you can deal with it. In the UK, if someone breaks into your house and you hit them with a cricket bat, you are the one who goes to jail for ABH. The laws are on the side of the criminals. Gun bans will NEVER keep the guns out of the hands of criminals, just the law abiding citizens.

I see no reason to move back to the UK as it is just getting worse. I have read that you are now more likely (by around 20 times) to get mugged in London than New York. What a shift. A knee jerk reaction to a terrible incident (Dunblane), but will it really benefit everyone in the long term?

The whole concept of a police force is seriously flawed. Why does everyone accept this idea without thinking it through?

Police officers can not prevent crimes from happening. At best they can arrest someone, but only after a crime has already occurred. Even better, police officers must often sit around and wait for a criminal to commit crime, after crime, after crime. The hope is that there will eventually be enough clues to identify (and locate) the criminal. However criminals tend to leave more victims than clues, so this approach does not always work.

By the way, in the rare event that a criminal is (stupid enough to get) caught, how often are criminals punished by the courts?

The bottom line: police officers are just reporters with guns. Think about it. Reporters tend to show up after everything is already over and try to piece everything together from eyewitness accounts. Police officers do the same thing, but they carry guns with them.

Until someone comes up with a better way to do things, will you please give me my gun back? I am responsible for taking care of my family, and I would like to protect them from the criminal breaking into my house (in broad daylight). I promise I will only hurt the criminal if they first try to hurt my family.

I also promise to tell the police everything when they show up, so they can do their jobs write about what happened in their reports. Maybe if you are lucky they will release their reports to other reporters and you will hear about what happened on the news.

i live in southport merseyside
i reported a man carring a gun to the local police, this man is my partners brother, he showed me the gun a 9mm smith and western i told him i would tell the police
when i told the police they searched his house and then came back to me and said he told them he didnt have a gun but they took a joint of him
i konw he had a gun i saw it and it was definatley real and a real danger to anybody either side of it
i think the police in southport are incompetent fools who have absolutly no idea of how to tackle gun crime. period.... all they had to do was use a metal detector and they would have not only found it but also prevented any further crimes being commited with this weapon... as it is sombody IS WALKING ABOUT WITH THAT WEAPON i hope the police read this as i am in no doubt whatsoever about thier incompetence..
now as result of this i am being persecuted by my partner and her family when all i wanted was for my baby to have a safer environment
the police are a waste of time...

another example of hypocrosy
WE MAKE GUNS WE SELL GUNS US THE ENGLISH EXPORT GUNS IT IS LEGAL TO OWN A GUN IF THE POLICE LIKE YOU
NOT WEATHER YOU ARE A CRIMINAL
EVERYBODY WHO OWNS A GUN IS A POTENTIAL KILLER INCLUDING THE POLICE
DEAD PEOPLE DONT SPEAK
NON LETHAL WEAPONS ARE THE ONLY EXCUSABLE MEANS OF FORCE
DESTROY THE MANUFACTURE OF GUNS
AND DONT TALK BULL...
GUNS KILL PERIOD
PEOPLE WHO LIKE GUNS ARE STUPID.
PEOPLE WHO USE GUNS ARE DANGEROUS

A very good friend of mine who lives in South Africa has sat in a restaurant with a gun to her head THREE times. They wanted her mobile and cash on all three occasions.

The law in that country does little to protect the innocent, yet the criminals get away.

My brother was senselessly murdered in nov 2006, while out celebrating his friend's birthday, he was dancing when he got shot twice in the back through nothing more than jealusy.. Gun crime is a big issue as much as knife crime, the pain that my family is going through and other families is undescribable until you live it and i just wish no more families will have to live this. Arian's trial starts in jan 08 and i pray we hear the words guilty so many of these scums get off and then do it again. My mother is a broken woman and i wish these scums could really see the pain they have caused upon Arian's family. It is not only bad people that die by the bullet of a gun the good/innocent are now getting caught up in it, we never in our dreams would have expected this to happen to us as i am sure all other victims families but if it happened to us it really can happen to anyone..Guns need to be taken of the streets, we have another brother who is now 12, what does the future hold for him with all these violence?, his life is tarnished and his childhood has been darkened by the murder of his much loved older brother. Its time for people to make a stand..Guns and knives need to be taken off our streets, and people need to stop making excuses especially us black people and stop blaming it on the 'system'..my family grew up in this 'system' and we are not gun toting murderer's. It's not hard to figure out that taking a life for nothing and next to nothing is wrong. Its not justfiable especially the reasons these days, my brothers death was so so senseless and pointless -i cant even say he stepped on someone foot, or got into an argument-(although these are not even remote reasons, i hope understand the point i am trying to make, it would still be just as senseless) he lost his life through nothing more than jealousy..This is how crazy peopel in this world has become. I dont know how they can sleep at night-but they do!

This assisination of all people -black, white purple or red, needs to stop. It's not just a black problem it is a people problem cos it everyone in some form or another. Just look how many kids are getting their life robbed from them. Its disgusting and i hate all murderers, they make me sick.

I just want to say one thing to everyone on here. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns are just one means of killing someone. If there is a surge in knife related killings are we going to ban kitchen knives? I mean honestly. Take a look at the US. I moved from the UK to Texas and getting out of the UK is the best thing I ever did. In the US you are actually allowed to stand up and defend yourself from a criminal. You are allowed to protect yourself and your property unlike in the UK. If you look at the crime statistics from both countries, you will actually see that the crime rate is dropping in the US since the passing of concealed handgun laws permitting people who have passed all background checks to lawfully carry a concealed handgun on their person. Brilliant.

Like someone else said, banning guns just removes them from the hands of law abiding citizens. The criminals will still get them and USE THEM.

people need to think carefully about the real problem/cause of the escalating shootings or stabbing,mainly on teenages and most recently even young victims (11 yrs).the govenment talks of introducing tougher enforcement,new laws on increased sentence,age ect.these will not deter a potential shooter from pulling the trigger. because of lack of guidance at their earlier ages ,they carry guns and knives to solve a problems in their own way.anti-bulling,anti-racesim,anti-drugs & alcohol are factors that must made aware to our children from HOME.parents guide your children,to grow up responsibliy and respectful of other people.

i am 14 and i hate gun crime We all remember the fatal death of damaloa Taylor he was not shoot but stabbed but it rocked the world it was on the news worldwide and people paid respect to his distort family.

and we need to remeber the world is not safe anymore.... thank you

Boys with toys will never learn! If you tell them not to kick a stone they will kick a rock instead the same goes for guns if you tell them that asulting is bad then they will find something else to get revenge on enemys even if it means stabbing or shooting they will just never learn!!!

too bloody long

I was a victim of gun crime on the 1/1/07. I was 23 at the time a normal young girl who likes to go out with her friends on the weekend and then bang on new years eve i got shot in my left leg in a club. The gun was not aimed at me, i was totally oblivious to what had happened. It took be a little while for it to actually sink in that this actually happened to me, it opened my eyes to what is happening everyday in britain.
I have been affected by this emotionally and physically, i am still waiting for counciling and i have to go physio once a week. the police have not been in contact with me at all since march 2007 to let me know if justice has been done. I just want reassurance for myself.
Gun crime is related to drugs and what people see on the TV they make it look easy and if the youths of today are involved is because of what they are being tought, 'easy money on the roads' needing a gun for protection, i have spoken to alot of young people about it to get a better understanding of why they feel to injure or kill someone to get there point across. I feel we need to have more youth events/talks in schools to hopefully make the youths of the future more clued up to the effects it has on the victims and their families.
What has happened to me has stopped me from clubbing and made me more aware of my surroundings, i feel this inncident has made me a much stonger person and even more determined to persue my dreams i am not going to let gun crime control me gun crime needs to be controlled.

i got shot in the head

ON SAFER NEIGHBOURHOOD POLICE TEAMS

On 18 Feb 2007, one week before David Cameron visited Manchester and was greeted by a hoodie who pretended to shoot him, I wrote about a similiar experience. (see below). I do hope this little "terror" did not read my comments on line - as I would feel somewhat responsible if he then tried to emulate my experience !!!

I know the police alone cannot resolve gun crime and they cannot be expected to be on every street corner They tend to only get involved after the event - we need communities including the police to regularly embrace our youth, but communities have to be willing participants. It works both ways. The Safer Neighbourhood Police Teams can only do so much and they are only a small team of maximum 5 people (on a good day) looking after an average ward population of 10,000 residents and they are not always immediately on call. Residents have complained of leaving messages on their answerphones as their mobile numbers are often diverted to their answer phone. I believe London Borough Commanders and the Commissioner, Sir Ian Blair have an unrealistic expectation that they (SNPT) and they alone can resolve gun crime. Only this afternoon, whilst walking my dog, I asked 2 young lads, aged between 9 and 13 why were they throwing stones at the newly refurbished windows of the £16m Willesden Sports Centre, on Donnington Road, NW10 ? Apart from being verbally abused, the 8 year old used a typical yob street culture language, "Mind your own F***ing business blood, I'm not scared of your dog, I'll shoot it" and then he proceeded to give me a hand signal depicting a gun. (two fingers and thumb pulling trigger). Terrifying, disturbing and shocking.

The government, our MP's, Cllr's, Community groups, teachers, parents, guardians, foster parents etc etc must insist every school in the Country, have as part of their educational curriculum, a 1 - 2 hour lesson on "How you make a difference to your community". This means STOP talking the street language, teaching them that the pen is mighter than the sword, how it is much cooler to walk away, guns and knives are not the answer, how this ruins lives, they must be taught anger management, - role play in in classes, teaching them how to defuse aggressive behaviour in the playground and elsewhere, how when confronted by a disgrunted once friend how they can turn it around. All of this has to be done everyday in our classrooms up and down the country from the age of 5, so by the time they reach 15, these children will have values, morals, humanity, decency, learn to be decent good citizens instilled in their blood, the only blood we want to read about - the right kind of blood !

Rocky Fernandez
Chair
Kensal Green Community Safety Forum

Hi, im a teenager living in East Anglia, i have no experience of gun crime and have never known anyone in my life so far to have been affected by guns. Perhaps the most serious crime is knife crime, i have never known knife crime in my area before and has recently been taking off, i do not belive arming yourself against your peers is the answer to protect yourself but i can see why many others would. It is a shame that other teenagers like myself do not see how irresponsible having a gun in your possession is.

Street Crime?....I was Born and Bred on one of the toughest estates at The Elephant and Castle in South London(as were my friends and peers).I do not know any of them(all around 50 now) who has ever been involved with The Police(other than minor speeding)...what (nearly) all of us had was a close 2-parent(how terribly quaint!) Family structure.Now in the Community that is responsible for(at least)20 out of the 22 London Teenage Murders(in 22 seperate incidents London-wide) this year far less than half of their Children have 2 parents.with the Father not giving any Emotional,Practical and Financial support to The Mother.....Broke my heart the other day when a 2-year-old lovely little Black Boy("Take Care Mummy" he would say)witnessed his Mum being beaten up by the (usually) absent Dad.Now the Boy has become "rude" according to his Mum.His Sisters Father has long since gone as well..What Chance do these poor kids have?....Many of these kids turn to The Gangs for their "Father-Figures..then comes the knives and guns....

It's easy to leave a comment saying the goverment need to toughen sentences. Easy to refer to a distance acquaintance who was slightly connected to a problem with guns.

Easy to read the front page of the paper and feel sad at the loss of another life.

But it's not easy to actually make a diffrence. It's not easy to try and help. We all understand it's got nothing to do with most of you middle class londoners. That's until its your doorstep.

Your boss crossing the road at the wrong time. Your friends boy/girlfriend. Maybe even you. Then its a problem. Then something has to be done about it.

Your next message on this website wil be heartfelt and sincere and you'll plead for people to pay attention.

But why wait??

The problem of gun and knife crime can not be demolished by a new goverment legislation or harsher punishments for offenders. If you leave a human in a jugle he kills to eat. That's all the youth of today are doing.

Before you mistake my words i am aware that the senseless killings recently have very little to do with survival, but there are always those that dont understand and do the wrong thing.

For many black youths selling drugs is the occupation to reach a level of 'wealth' that would be impossible to them if the followed the 'education system'. Equal rights to us means the sucess of a few to make the world look mixed. Every individual doesnt have a chance, despite what the worlds leaders say.

They sell drugs and use guns to protect themselves, but without wisdom area rivalry has grown in our communities and lost control.

I dont agree with selling drugs or carrying guns. There's just no other option and all the new construction courses opening up for males isnt the answer. Many see it as a way to keep people from acheiving more. You can alwaysa go to Uni but not everyone can afford it (even with the loans).

I believe in education, its only if we learn everything. can we make a change.

Gun crime will cease when there is no more ethnic minorities and just a whole. its an impossible task...

So much to say.....

but thats it.

Rest in Peace Etem still missing you.

Everyone I've lost this year and last to sad to name, dont worry we're making that change.

The two major answers are:

- Prevent guns coming into the country... there must be more they can do.

- Bad Parents are the main problem. Teenagers are children, they'd launch a meteorite at Planet Earth if they had the chance just like they pull the kettle wire from the worktop if it's visible. Just like they shoot someone out of 'disrespect'.
They don't fully comprehend that when someone is killed, that's it, the end...

Bad parents is definitely the single most major factor in all this. It's not just about not knowing where your kids are, you can't imprison them. It's more about how the child values a peaceful way of life.

- Police and punishment is a vague factor because it focuses on a problem that already exists.

I wish I was prime minister.